I know this post might not be politically correct. It also might not be very well received. But that being said I wanted to write about an event that happened 20 years ago this weekend.
But before I do. I wanted to briefly talk about Marriage.If you look up the definition of Marriage in Webster's Dictionary in 1828 you will read the following:
- Marriage is union of a man and woman.
- Marriage was instituted by God himself.
Following the printing of the 1828 dictionary, the definition of marriage has changed dramatically over the years. Two completely opposite deviations of marriage has occurred. On the left, marriage has been refined and now become legal to marry someone of the same sex. To the right is polygamy. Anyone who is a Mormon is should unfortunately be familiar with this type of marriage in which someone marries multiple spouses. (Here is Salt Lake City, Brigham Young married up to 55 women)
Both of these forms of marriages has been and still is very prevalent in the state of Utah.
The reason for the post is not to go into depth about these issues but to remember an event that happened 20 years ago this weekend. Sunday, August 11 marks the 20th anniversary of the EXTREMELY UNUSUAL TORNADO that touched down in Salt Lake City. Most people either have forgotten or are unaware about this event.
There might not be any connection and completely coincidental. But for those who don't know anything about what happened 20 years ago, this might be somewhat interesting.
Center was repaired and dedicated a year later in 2000.
The tornado uprooted and destroyed an iconic tree on Temple Square which was a favorite backdrop for brides' pictures at the Salt Lake Temple. Newly married couples would pose next to this tree after their marriage and sealing in the Temple. It was located on the symbolic southeast corner of the Temple and was nicknamed the "Sweetheart Tree. The tree was a honeysuckle tree, but was gnarled in a manner similar to an olive tree. It is believed to have grown from seeds carried across the plains by the pioneers.
All of the windows in front of the big Christus statue in the North visitor’s center were blown out. Due to the destruction, Temple Square was closed for two days. One witness said, "We had shards of glass from the visitors center [windows] that were embedded in soil 12 inches," he said. "The doors on the east end of the Tabernacle blew off -- they were gone."
The tornado ended at Memory Grove.. also a very popular path where those who lived an alternative lifestyle would meet up. Nearly all of the trees in Memory Grove, a park at the mouth of City Creek Canyon near downtown, were reportedly torn out, as well as hundreds of old trees on the Capitol grounds.
Coincidence or Symbolic? Portent or Random? A Sign for what is to come.. or should we ignore and dismiss the interesting facts?
Along with a couple of business partners, including current Salt Lake City mayoral candidate Jim Dabakis, I owned and operated Club Axis a block away from The Sun Tavern. This was years after Denver Snuffer was a regular guest commentator and legal adviser on Jim’s talk show on KTKK. (By the way, Denver is still good friends with Jim.)
ReplyDeleteAnyway, AXIS enjoyed a far larger gay event population than the Sun due to its size---we were licensed for over 1,000. Both clubs were harmed by the tornado. The Sun was decimated, and the roof of AXIS was mostly ripped off. We would go on to rebuild and host The Last Lap and Mountain Dew Ice Village during the winter Olympics. But that horrible day of the tornado, man that was scary. As the ferocious winds howled and lifted the roof, we found safety inside a walk-in liquor cooler. There we were, three gay men sitting on the floor with our hands over our heads. That cooler saved our lives that day a tornado charted an unlikely path.
And where are we today? Steve is alive and has now been happily married to Jim for over 25 years. Our employee with us in the cooler took his life when he couldn’t reconcile his nature with his smothering Mormon upbringing. And as an openly gay man, live to teach gospel doctrine in Sunday School, serve in the temple, and am blessed to be taught from what Brother Snuffer has written and spoken. (I regret he did not participate in this years SunStone Symposium.)
I thank the Lord that my life was spared on that ferocious day by seeking refuge from the storm in a liquor cooler in a gay nightclub. I have read your blog for several years. Love the new graphic treatment, and always the inspiring, insightful content, but perhaps not today. You are wading into waters that are too deep for your understanding. It is not given you to know.
Our oldest granddaughter was born on that day. We watched the tornado from the hospital windows. I didnt realize all that had gone on. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteSo, the Lord targeted the homosexuals and the LDS Church, but ignored all of the other sinners? He seems kinda....selective in his anger, I guess?
ReplyDeleteThis is somewhat akin to posts I've seen on other blogs making fun of the Angel Moroni being struck by lightning on some temples (again, the Lord seems to only pick on one particular group??)
I don't get it.
@Anonymous August 11, 2019 at 9:37 AM
ReplyDeleteYour comment concluded with a statement about waters too deep for the blog poster. And how it "is not given you to know". Which is closely tied to a scripture statement from Jesus about some people not being given to know mysteries of God while it is given to others to know.
If you have light and truth to share, and understand a mystery others do not, and if it has been given you to know, please share your light and truth on the topic or correct others understanding so we can all benefit.
-RP
Random Person,
ReplyDeleteJesus Christ has already shared light and truth, and given us the keys to understand many mysteries, including this one. If you cannot see or
Accept from The Lord himself, would you hear if that anonymous person answered your questions directly?
If you feel even the smallest inkling that it is your right or duty to “judge” anyone in the sense you attempt to undertake, you still have plenty to learn from the scriptures and the Lord’s example. I’d recommend starting there.
Just so you’re aware, you did a very poor job of hiding your sarcasm and mocking spirit, if you were indeed trying to hide it.
The post of that anonymous person contained a spirit far far closer to Our Lord than either your response or this original post.
OpenMind
ReplyDeleteI can understand how that may have come across as mocking or sarcastic. People have at times mocked me, with sarcasm, and it hurt. In my past I have no doubt treated people that way, but I don't wish to do that any more. I actually rewrote that question trying to avoid the things you pointed out.
I mean you no mocking or sarcasm. And I am sorry if it came across that way.
I am honestly asking. I was and still am open to being persuaded by the response. If you or that anonymous commentor can share some light, or explain a mystery involving the definitions of marriage or the other central topics of the original post, I'd love to consider it. The anonymous comment implied they did understand (while other did not) a mystery on this, and being unsure what exactly they were referring to, I am asking so I can consider it.
RP
Random Person,
DeleteThe spirit in this response to me is very different than your original post I responded to. I had to reread this one because it was so different. I commend your openness and slowness to take offense, especially when none was intended. This last response to me feels very sincere and so I will respond, but my answers will simply point to the Lord. He alone can provide you with Light and Truth on this, and I’m confident He will do so for you if approached sincerely and meekly in a state where you are willing to receive correction and information from Him.
The absolute best passage on definition of marriage that exists here is the Lord’s correction of a portion of LDS D&C 132 found in the Answer to Prayer for Covenant which is now in the Teachings and Commandments in the New Scriptures. But very very few, if any, people who read that passage with their own pre conceived and set in stone judgements are able to see everything in that passage. They read and see what they want to read and see. The hard hearted will ALWAYS receive a lesser portion of the word and will not comprehend the characteristics, perfections, and attributes of God.
That passage from Answer to Prayer for Covenant must be read very very carefully to not add in the garbage we think we know and pretend to have authority to speak on.
There are essentially innumerable numbers of unborn children who have been killed in the womb while developing. Unwanted children. Those children are indeed redeemed by Christ’s atonement and sacrifice as described in Moroni. They will be given the same opportunities, joys, and ability to progress that are mercifully afforded to those who denied them of those things. The amount of those who find, much less follow the Lord’s path here is small. This is unfortunate but is what it is. This presents us with a truth of likely billions of children without worthy parents. That same merciful Lord will also give opportunities to those here who have been the victims of harsh judgement, abuse, and mistreatment in His name. Those who, despite all of that mistreatment and false judgements from those worshipping an imaginary, idol God, embrace His Doctrine of
Baptism and repentance and embrace His command that we love one another.
God intended many things for us. WE messed up those plans. It was not God’s plan to sacrifice His only begotten Son and watch Him be tortured and killed. That became necessary because of our failure, disobedience, and refusal to partake “in season”. What we have messed up, God has and will remedy. And He will remedy everything in a way now beyond our comprehension. The only safe position to take in our hearts from my viewpoint, is to love our brothers and sisters because of who they are, and not feigning love “in spite” of who they are in an attempt to convince ourselves we are justified before God. “In spite” love will not produce a Zion people.
A great deal of care must be taken when trying to apply subjective blanket judgements of any sub classification/division of person we imagine up in our stupidity. The Lord is no respecter of person and is unchanging. That is true. But HE ALONE KNOWS THE HEART OF EVERY PERSON. He alone has an objective vantage point. We do not share His vantage point. Period. To believe otherwise is nothing but arrogance. The Parents of Christ prefer the meek and “them of low degree”. (Our Divine Parents) They do not prize nor prefer the arrogant. To possess only limited, subjective , incomplete information and then use that to judge or classify another human beings heart who is different than us is the definition of arrogance. The people who use Christ’s name and teachings (or imaginary teachings not from Him) as a club to wrongfully condemn and belittle His sheep, cannot be comfortable in His presence. I can tell you that from experience. I used to do exactly that. And I had a bad time.
I do not like that I have taken over the comments on this post and won’t say anyone. I leave only what I have said to stand and am perfectly comfortable accounting for it.
Thanks for the response OpenMind.
DeleteWhat are some things you see in the A&C about marriage that others may not yet see? Or that pre conceived ideas may blind them to?
RP
Random Person,
ReplyDeleteAfter reading Open Mind's reprimand of your comment, I had to go back and read what you wrote a second time. I'm at a loss as to why Open Mind was accusing you of being sarcastic or judgmental. You asked a legitimate question.
The anonymous poster had reprimanded the author of this blog site for "wading into waters that are too deep for his understanding" and then followed by saying it was "too deep for [the blog author] to know." Hmm. Seems like anonymous was being presumptuous in his own assessment of the author, while telling the author he was presumptuous to assume God's judgement was being displayed in the tornado's path.
The anonymous poster seemed frustrated with the bloggers views pertaining to homosexuality and same-sex marriage. It hit a cord that was not welcome for him as a reader. I get that hearing things like that are hard---the Book of Mormon teaches that such things are difficult to hear. I often get defensive when someone points out my errors/sins/weaknesses, too. It's usually my first inner clue that I'm reacting in pride and not humility.
Open Mind followed up by making his own accusations against you and the blog author and made a claim that the anonymous poster is closer in line with the spirit of the Lord than are either you or the blogger. That itself is a bold declaration to make.
To me this is non-sense and another example of people changing scripture meanings and definitions of judgement and love to fit their worldview. Somehow, we've become a world that has no real regard for what the Savior has actually taught and instead we create God after our own image, and teach of a Lord that is so permissive that you'd think there were no parameters within which He's asked us to live.
Since everyone commenting seemed to express care about the Lord's views on all of this---why did anonymous and Open Mind fail to refer to the Lord's numerous declarations against homosexuality, fornication, adultery and all things immoral? In fact, why did they infer that the Lord approves?
Personal observations can be made and expressed as opinions, such as the bloggers observations about the precise path of the tornado that may or may not hold water. It was given as something to ponder. Not definitive. But no one who honestly claims a concern for our Lord's teachings is left to ponder whether the Lord condones certain behaviors and lifestyles. Why is the defense of homosexuality always to point out that other people have sins, too? To state that homosexuality is a sin, is NOT saying there aren't loads of other sins that the Lord disapproves of...but He can certainly be a Lord who has made His law known in scripture and has also shown through historical precedence that when a people become ripe in iniquity (of all forms), the prevalence and acceptance of homosexuality is a fruit that is manifest in such a society. A fulness of iniquity will always have a prevalence of immorality of all kinds...but it doesn't negate that any of them are sins and unacceptable paths to take if one has a hope of becoming like our Savior. If a person can't figure that out in this round of eternity---they'll find themselves having to figure it out in the next telestial experience.
And no one need argue whether God loves all His children either. Obviously He does. But love does not condone that which prevents the eternal progression of an individual. And speaking up in matters like this is not a lack of love. TRUE CHARITY IS ALWAYS FOUNDED UPON A CONCERN FOR THE SALVATION OF THE SOULS OF OTHERS. Period. Being nice, and saying soft things that others like to hear is not the same as charity.
It is only His love and patience and hope for our repentance that staves off our destruction as we speak. But that will not always be the case. Read the Book of Jude. The judgements of before will repeat in the end.
I say, wonderful post Bare Record. It gave me things to consider I had not been aware of.
“Being nice, and saying soft things that others like to hear is not the same as charity.”
DeleteDon’t I know it Karen. I don’t get the sense you are liking much of what I am saying.
Karen,
ReplyDeleteThe difference between you and I seems to be I’m full of weaknesses and problems, and you are not. Sure you say you have those things, but your comments that follow suggest otherwise.
So judge away.
A permissive Lord you say. I know no such Lord. I’m keenly aware I do not measure up. If I thought He was permissive and didn’t require strict obedience, I’d judge a whole lot more other people than I do, for things for outside my personal experience that I know nothing about. Like you and OP are very comfortable doing. I can’t imagine being comfortable in that position with what I know.
The only things I’m comfortable condemning in my own heart ABOUT MYSELF, are things the Lord has actually instructed against in scripture. If I were attracted to the same sex, I would be able to find no such condemnation in scripture. I am unaware of where the Lord has condemned any person for simply existing as they are. I would not, however, be able to justify rampant sexual activities with multiple partners, whatever my orientation. I would only be able to justify commitment and love to a single spouse, exactly as I find in His words now as a straight person. He is no respecter of persons. We are.
If you think a same sex married couple who love and are committed to one another is worse than polygamy for example, you are reading different scriptures than me.
Karen,
ReplyDeleteTo be crystal clear, I am NOT saying a homosexual person is guilty of sin. My defense of Anonymous is not simply “but I have problems too” while implying what they are doing is wrong. I do not view that person as sinning. I do not have the authority, ability, or knowledge to classify who someone else is or what they do as a “sin”. That doesn’t make any sense. All that would do is prevent my ability to view them as a brother or sister. So in that sense, if I were to do what you have suggested I am doing, I would classify THAT as a sin in myself.
Open Mind,
ReplyDeleteYour opening comment to me (7:54 a.m.) suggests you believe that because I identify something (in this case homosexuality ---which I define as practicing homosexual behavior, whether "married" or not) as a sin, that somehow that means I'm insincere in my acknowledgment that I have a heap of weakness and sin, too.
You're inferring that if a person identifies behaviors and practices that exist in this world as "sin"--- that person can't be sincere in recognizing/admitting they are a sinner themselves. In other words, taken to its logical conclusion, no one can identify anything as sin---because we all sin---therefore, none of us are ever justified in identifying a sin as sin.
To me, this is ludicrous---Not only on a personal level, because you don't know my heart or my sincerity in acknowledging my status before God. But apart from the personal judgement you made about my sincerity, your conclusion means we can never teach our children or others that certain things are actually sins, because we all sin, so it's a form of judgement if you say something is a sin.
I'm sorry, but I will never believe that God wants ANYONE to condone, teach, or even imply to others that sin of any kind is okay, or not detrimental to their welfare...whether that sin is part of one's own struggle or not. ALL sin must be recognized for what it is and repented of if any of us hope for salvation.
The call to repentance is the hallmark of a true messenger from God. God chastises those He loves. Why do we shun having our sins identified? Why is it that those practicing homosexuality are so averse to being told it is a sin and so quick to explain to others why God justifies what they're doing, even though His word declares otherwise? My daily scripture reading alone reveals to me a myriad of things I need to change. I would be a fool to try to justify myself or blame God for my struggles. He asks for my repentance. Part of receiving His hoped for mercy is to acknowledge the truth of my status/actions/thoughts/deeds. For some reason, those who struggle with homosexual sin somehow want to be exempt from their actions being called "sin," or a need for repentance being acknowledged. It's like they want a special exception carved out for their sin. I'm not carving out an exception for ANY sin. All sin separates us from God and cannot be fully covered by the atonement without repentance.
As to your second point in that 7:54 comment: I use the scriptures as the standard by which I try to discern all matters. Christ taught that's the only way to avoid being deceived [JST Matt 24]. That said, I most assuredly find polygamy (which was introduced into the world by Cain's grandson) just as abominable as same-sex marriage. And since God alone is the author of marriage, and it is His to ordain the parameters of what it is or is not---I only accept a marriage between one man, and one woman to be legitimate, authorized and void of sin. That's the pattern laid out in the creation by God, and the only pattern I practice or condone. Not sure what I said that would lead you to think I'd be permissive of polygamy. (or adultery/fornication)
continued below....
Part 2 continued....
ReplyDeleteAs per your final comment (9:43 a.m.) It's not that I don't like what you are saying, it's that I believe most of it to be the philosophies of men mingled with scripture and I feel a responsibility to help identify such instances for thoughtful readers who may benefit from reading an opposing idea to yours. I see your view as a very prevalent and popular, but misguided (although sincere) attempt to show love toward your fellowman by not appearing judgmental of anyone---but one that does NOT ultimately bless your fellowman when you condone actions that will result in a loss of salvation if not turned away from.
As per your 9:41 comment: Again, you're implying you cannot realize a person is sinning and still have the ability to view them as your brother/sister. In essence, to say something someone is doing is a sin, feels it is a forbidden form of judging to you.
We are ALL called upon to make judgements everyday. It is part of the mortal test. I have had to judge whether I think the scriptures were written by authentic messengers...a form of judging them. I'm told by Christ to judge whether some among us are wolves in sheep's clothing---OUCH! That's quite a judgement to make. I've been told to judge whether someone is a false prophet. I've had to judge whether Russel Nelson is telling the truth when he says he's gotten revelations---and was Monson speaking for God with the 2015 policy? Or was Nelson in 2019? I've had to judge whether the LDS Church has fallen into a state of unrecognized apostasy. I've had to judge whether a struggling teenager is lying to me or not when they swear they're telling the truth. I've had to judge whether I think someone is "safe" to leave my children with as a sitter. The list goes on.
None of us can escape making judgements. Existence requires it. We will all be judged on our ability to correctly judge the things we faced in mortality---whether we could discern what was truth or error, light or dark, authorized from God or counterfeit. And the only way to avoid being deceived is to use the scriptures as the standard upon which you gauge everything. The qualifier given by the Lord is to not use "unrighteous judgement." And the Book of Mormon gives all of us a clear explanation of not only what righteous judgement is, but the explicit directive that we MUST make those judgements. Making a required judgement doesn't mean a person has condemned another person. God can decide whether He will forgive or not based upon a whole bunch of factors, but of each of us, it is required for us to learn and prove our discernment and ability to choose between good and evil, truth and error---this cannot be done without making judgement.
Aren't we lucky Moroni explains to us both the necessity of judgement and how it is to be done.
"Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil. For behold, my brethren, IT IS GIVEN UNTO YOU TO JUDGE, that ye may know good from evil; and THE WAY TO JUDGE IS PLAIN, that ye may know with a PERFECT KNOWLEDGE, as the daylight is from the dark night....wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. But WHATSOEVER thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil..." This is followed by a discourse on faith, hope and charity. All of which, if understood, require obedience to God's laws in order to obtain, as well as sacrifice....the ultimate gift being charity...which is founded upon a welfare for the salvation of the souls of your fellowman.
part 3 continued....
ReplyDeleteThe Lord says that in our day people will call evil good, and good evil. I take seriously my obligation to learn to discern and identify when such sophistry is at play in the reasoning and logic of others. I see it blatantly displayed in our day when it comes to the topic of homosexuality and all its associated tenets. I'm sorry if that offends you. But perhaps it offends because it strikes against a chord of internal and eternal truth that our common enemy does not want you to recognize.
God has given just as dire a warning against calling something good that is not good, as he has for calling something evil that isn't. If you claim homosexual practices are good, and same-sex marriage is good and acceptable to God and you are wrong---then you risk His judgements for your inability to correctly judge a plain matter. I've carefully weighed the matter and am confident of God's declarations on the practice as being outside the bounds He has established for His children. It would be uncharitable of me to not help you, my brother, see the potential risk for yourself if you call that which He has called evil, good. Just as you feel to warn me that you see me as judgmental.
Hi Karen,
ReplyDeleteI see your sincerity in your beliefs. I get it. I was literally there not 3 years ago. But with that said:
In the day of judgement, I’m sure the Lord will say “nope, sorry. You were too accepting of those with differing sexual preferences than you. You were far too kind and concerned about them feeling truly loved and accepted so they found the hope to
Not take their own lives. You should have been condemning their very identity harder. You didn’t TRULY love them because you didn’t join in the cacophony of straight “Christian” people telling them how hopeless they were simply because their natural affection is different than yours.”
Seem likely?
Like I said, it’s clear to me we are reading different scriptures. Your generalized attitude toward these brothers and sisters isn’t even mingled with scripture by my reading. Definitely a philosophy of men though. Utah in particular is really good at that one. It’s working out really well. When faced with those who took their own lives due to rejection and hate, I’m sure those “charitable” people will feel so glad they were woke enough to clearly see all the other motes.
When facing down those precious souls who must now bear the burden of forgiving THEM for their self righteousness, mistreatment, and accusations, a lot of people who believe precisely as you do are going to have a really bad time.
The anonymous commenter mentioned a couple who have been together for 25 years. I know a few couples who have been together quite a long time. Without exception some of the kindest, loving, and committed people I’ve ever met. Embodying the sermon on the mount in every respect. Could live in peace with almost anyone. Calling good evil indeed.
Open Mind,
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that you chose that name. Perhaps your mind may have become a little TOO open. I am open minded, too---so much so that I've sacrificed reputation, popularity, employment and honor because my open mind sought truth at all costs...and it cost me! :-) I mean no offense, rather honest discussion ---But you seem to have taken a worthy virtue, and allowed that virtue to rob you of discernment to balance out the seeming paradoxes found in scripture. Instead, it seems you have bought into concepts that are repeated so much in our society that you've now latched onto them without the ability to weigh everything taught in scripture within in a proper balance and context. Your understanding of, and desire to "love" has morphed into something imbalanced that has no real reflection of what the scriptures teach. A better word for your approach to others would be "nice." You're confusing God's love [which CAN/DOES entail chastisement, rebukes, and even destruction, if needed] with a person being "nice" to others. And in your effort to be "nice" and make sure everyone "feels good" about themselves, you've bought into thinking it's godlike to accept everyone's version of "truth" so they can be"themselves" without any guilt derived from concepts of absolute truth, or right and wrong.
We've become a nation where "everyone does what is right in their own eyes." We literally commend people for "living their truth" as some clever social media statement that congratulates them for having the courage to ultimately set aside God and HIS truth. This is how I see what you are doing in your effort to bend backwards to not say same-sex marriage is wrong, and then use "love" as the trump card to show how your approach is correct, while I'll be in "hot water" come judgement day for not being so accepting and nice as you.
You continue to insist that my scriptural based conviction that the practice of homosexuality is a sin, means I lack LOVE. [because if I really "loved," I'd come to the same conclusion as you, and embrace same-sex marriage]
Additionally, you're assuming that I, and/or other Mormons and Christians are somehow complicit in causing people to commit suicide.
You need to take up your accusations of being the cause of their suicide with Christ. It's HIS word that teaches these things are sin...not mine. It's HIS laws they are violating and thus, causing the internal conflict within themselves...not mine. The people you're charging with being accomplices to suicide are merely standing firm in the Lord's word. NO WHERE in His word can you find anything that implies two-people of the same-sex are justified by His law in having a sexual relationship IN OR OUT of marriage.
And when you throw marriage into the mix of the homosexual conduct, although you may think this lends justification to it because they're "committed" to one another (and some of the nicest people you've met)---the reality is that making such a mockery of marriage only compounds the seriousness of the sin even more---it doesn't lessen the seriousness of the sin---it multiplies it exponentially. I will go so far as to say any marriage that doesn’t conform to the pattern set out by God, and of God, is, by defnition, an abomination.
part 2 continued
part 2 ....
ReplyDeleteThe word "love" is literally under assault by our society. They've completely perverted the word for their purposes. For anyone to make God into their own image by warping the meaning of the word "love"---and simultaneously accuse people like me of lacking love because I don't condone the direction our society is taking----is bordering on blasphemy. Blasphemy? Yes. Here's why I say that.
GOD IS LOVE. Since God IS love--- if you misunderstand what that "love" really means, and you twist it and use that word (which would be one of His names) to justify behavior and conduct that He himself has forbidden---then you have taken His name in vain. You use His name to attribute things to Him that He did not say or condone. You ought to read the things the Lord warns of those who use His name in vain.
Since God IS LOVE---I am very careful to try to ascertain exactly what that means and how HE expects it to manifest between me and His other children in relation to ALL that He has taught. Hence, you will not and have not ever seen me mistreat an LGBTQ person or family member. You don't know my history to know the details of the intimacy with which I know/associate with such people and have deep experience in this matter. But, as part of my love, if I were to be personally asked by any LGBTQ person regarding my thoughts--- I will always be honest and clear that their choice will not lead to THEIR ultimate eternal happiness and their highest hopes of progress, but I would allow them to make a choice between clear explanations of God's plan for His children, and clear consequences of how they choose to use their agency.
You have bought in to premises on the topic that I have not at several levels. As such, we will never see this issue the same.
You also promote a God whose love would never say/do something that would hurt someone's feelings. Ironically, I just read both Paul and Joseph Smith this week [who knew God face to face], and they command believers to literally "cast out" from among their fellowship, those who fail to repent of sexual sins. Of course, with today's attitudes, these servants would be labeled as judgmental and uncharitable.
We don't hear these difficult paradoxical concepts of a loving God given by Paul and Joseph anymore because we don't read our scriptures---we just here platitudes about "love" and "don't judge" without really knowing anything about the God who IS both perfect in His love and His judgement. Perhaps if we really came to know Him, we'd comprehend more fully how God, who loves us all perfectly, can also not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, and perhaps we'd be just a small step closer to being like Him.
I've enjoyed our discussion. I wish you the best and warm regards despite our differences of perspective.
Thanks for the response OpenMind.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you see in the Answer to Prayer for Covenant about marriage that others may not yet see? Or that preconceived ideas or judgments may blind them to?
RP
I have often pondered this topic. There is evidence to support both points of view. They do in fact contradict each other. Just as “Captain Moroni” is held as a valiant hero to some, others can take many of his ways in context with Christ’s teachings and see his behavior as absolutely no better than the Lamanites he slew as they fled for their lives at the site of the army coming. Personally I have seen my Mormon Mother in-law disown her gay daughter. Personally I can not imagine ever treating my daughter that way. We all have choices on what it really means to follow Christ in Word, thought and deed.
ReplyDeleteMany will chose to follow the word and quote scripture as what they see as legitimate means to hold the beliefs they do. Thought on the other hand is harder. One must have the mind of Christ and not the mind of what we THINK Christ thinks.
For me, I choose deed. I will try to DO what Christ tells me to do and follow his example. This is definitely hard to do and why most wont do it.
While on this earth he SHOWED US THE WAY TO LIVE. He taught the higher laws. I believe it is a higher law to learn to love those different than us. I believe it is certainly easier to condone others for their choices. I do not follow Paul nor Joseph. Christ said let he who is with out sin cast the first stone. Since I am definitely covered in sin, I will be the last to pronounce judgment on someone for the choices they make. We all will stand before God for OUR choices. If someone makes the choice in this round that could potentially limit their learning, knowledge and wisdom...WHO AM I to have an opinion on the matter?! We all have been given our agency to make the choices we will make. Some will learn faster some slower. I fear I learn slower. WE WILL ALL SEE THE HARVEST DAY. I would prefer to pray for the well being of all our sorry souls down here than to be the one to pronounce judgment on another.
But that’s just me.
I wonder if there is not a greater purpose to the increase of openly gay people these days. Perhaps the heavens are watching our every move and are saddened by our treatment as so called “Christians” of our fellow man. In this controversial topic we don’t leave much out. Many, many will chose hate and judgment in the name of Christ.
Only time will tell. As for me, I choose loving my fellow man and praying for their mercy as much as I need mercy myself.
Perhaps it's just a quibble, but I would like to point out a little bit about tornadoes. There is a common myth that tornadoes avoid big cities, but in reality, it's largely a matter of geometry. There is a lot more rural land than urban. And yet we have no shortage of tornadoes hitting big cities. Just to name a few from recent decades we had one in Miami in 1997, Nashville in 1998, Fort Worth in 2000, NYC in 2007 and twice in 2010, Atlanta in 2008, Raleigh in 2011, and Mobile in 2012.
ReplyDeleteI've also found that people are good at picking out disasters as God's wrath if they impact those they don't like. But if someone they like or they themselves get hit, it's a test of faith or a demonstration of power.