Friday, May 11, 2012

51: Re-Donating Donations?

LDS Church throws $4 million toward U.’s new law school

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is donating $4 million toward the University of Utah law school building project. Officials from the S.J. Quinney College of Law announced Friday they received the gift. Groundbreaking on the 155,000-square-foot building is expected to start in the summer of 2013, and the project should be finished in time for the 2014-15 school year. Dean Hiram Chodosh says the school aims to build one of the most innovative law buildings in the country. Chodosh says the LDS Church and the law school share similar educational goals.

"The Church’s involvement with the University [of Utah] goes back to its founding," said a U. news release quoting LDS Presiding Bishop Gary E. Stevenson. "The new, state-of-the-art law school building and those who will graduate from there will benefit the university and the community."

Where did the money come from? The only resource of income for the LDS Church is from it's members, since the donation is specifically from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and not from one of its for profit companies.  I wonder how tithing paying members feel about this who are BYU fans.


LJn said...

I don't know about BYU fans, but donating to the training of lawyers? How does that help the needy or increase one's ability to come unto Christ? I'm really confused as the the priorities here (and where one's money goes, shows ones' priorities).

LJn said...

"as to the priorities" not "as the the priorities."

Anonymous said...

It appears that our leaders have not read what the Book of Mormon says about lawyers -- and NONE of it is good.
It pains me that they are spending donated funds, much of which may be "the widow's mite" on secular projects that only serve to make the Church(TM) looks good in the eyes of the world.
Which GA do you think the new building will be named after? I'm guessing it will be the esteemed Lawyer Oaks.

Anonymous said...

Too me it does not matter. I am not going to pay my tithing anywhere eles so I will not give it much thought on how that money is spent once it out of my stewardship.

Anonymous said...

We will be held accountable for paying sacred tithing to leaders who do not prove to us they are using it as the Lord would want and as the scriptures say.

Thus it is our vital responsibility & command to be very concerned with how the Church uses the money it receives.

For no leader is infallible or can't fall or go astray & lead the church down with them.

Bruce R said...

I think this quote from Hugh Nibley might be appropriate here...

"My sense of urgency comes from the fact that I spend all my days now with the scriptures. And the two marks of the Church I see are and have been for a long time these: a reverence for wealth and a contempt for the scriptures. Naturally, the two go hand in hand. We should call attention to the fact that these things we are doing are against the work of the Lord. There is one saying of Joseph Smith I think of quite often: "If the heavens seem silent at a time when we desperately need revelation, it is because of covetousness in the Church. God has often sealed up the heavens because of covetousness." And now the Church isn't just shot through with covetousness, it is saturated with covetousness. And so the heavens are going to be closed. We're told we don't get revelation if we put our trust in money in the bank." "Nibley Talks about Contemporary Issues," 13

The man knew how to speak plainly.

Anonymous said...

I've often wondered what Nibley would be saying to us lately, these last few years, especially... He had the Church's ear. Random anonymous bloggers not so much, I'm afraid.

Anonymous said...

I agree with you. I have a child, however, who is struggling with this. I have a powerful testimony of tithing, though this is depressing to read (I am the widow with the mite--LOL!, not a widow, but . . ., have only mites to give)--

Trying to get a young person whose relationship with Jesus Christ is on flimsy ground to see the blessings of paying tithing when this sort of thing is happening is a huge challenge. One I am working through right now. Ah well.

Anonymous said...

this is heart breaking, but--

I will continue to pay my tithing. I know the blessings come from heaven, not from the church. I worry about those who are making these choices.

I feel very sad.

Anonymous said...

Show me in the scriptures where the Lord says this.

23 Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.

24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

27 Therefore, see to it that ye trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord.

(D&C 112: 23-27)

Despite all of this, the Church will remain the Lord's house and I will send my tithing there.

Anonymous said...

Mere Church History teaches us that Church leaders, even Prophets, are not infallible and they can and have fallen away and led us astray before.

It is a popular false doctrine that they can't.

For many apostles, if not most, in Joseph's day, fell astray into apostasy. The same could easily happen today.

Could we tell if Apostles or the Prophet did evil today? Even if it was kept hidden?

And if they do fall and start using the church funds incorrectly or do any other serious errors, and we go along with them, it is our own fault and we will lose our Exaltation (see D&C 76, 45) for allowing ourselves to be deceived by or support false or fallen leaders.

We are accountable to only give our money and support to true disciples of Christ. And we are warned that we must be able to discern who they are.

Anonymous said...

I can't begin to express how much I agree with the above statement. Thank you for saying what I believe is truth. This is in no way a justification for ceasing to pay tithing, but a reason to find out who and where the Lord would have you use what is ultimately ALL his.

LJn said...

I don't recall a scripture saying that we are held accountable for how the leaders spend tithing. We give it as a love offering to God. The leaders are accountable to Him, especially if they have trained us into thinking they are demi-gods who must not be questioned. I cannot, with good conscience, forbid myself from giving tithing to the church. I can, however, talk to God about it - discuss it with Him. I could tell Him that I'm giving the money to Him, but cannot control what is done with it, nor is there another entity authorized to accept it in God's behalf. He would tell me if I'm accountable for another's choices.

Anonymous said...

As with most of your comments on this blog I wholeheartedly agree.

Anonymous said...


It is true that leaders are accountable to God, but we are also accountable for which leaders or Church we 'choose' to support and follow and give our money to.

It is possible for the Church to go into apostasy, or have gone into apostasy. The Book of Mormon even appears to foretell it happening today.

Church leaders only 'train' us to think they are 'demi-gods' who can't be 'questioned' if we let them. I don't let anyone teach me to follow blindly.

We are all accountable if we allow ourselves to be led astray, by even Prophets. For we should have had the Spirit and studied the scriptures more and been more discerning if our leaders were indeed righteous or not.

Do you think the Lord would be 'just as ok' with you giving your tithing to the FLDS or RLDS or Catholics or Baptists, etc.???

If not, then it's not 'ok' to give it to the LDS Church if their leaders were to fall and go into apostasy.

Would you be able to tell if all the Prophets and Apostles in the Church ever did or have apostatized?

Would you still give sacred tithing to wicked men if they did fall? Especially if they were not taking care of the poor and needy?

Anonymous said...

I can't seem to reply to "Toni", so I'll reply to the "anonymous" who replied to "Toni"--

I know people who tithe to other Christian denominations who are blessed, but those are the denominations they have chosen to be members of.

There certainly is not a scripture that tells us not to pay tithing to the church, even if we are deeply concerned about what the leaders of the church are doing. For years I accepted the 'doctrine' that President Woodruff taught, and I believe it in a very limited way. I believe the church, itself, will not be destroyed, however decadent many within it become, however preposterous the programs be become, however poorly the leaders manage things. There needs to be a venue for payment of tithes, and those of us who choose to continue to pay tithing, even while being aware that we are paying it to the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints . . .--

will be blessed. There isn't another church that is better. Sadly. Only the members within the church can be better. And that is not sad. Each person must choose for him/herself. I will not tell you where to pay your tithing, but you will be blessed for paying it. Even as I shed tears over the choices leaders of "my" church (LDS) are making, I continue to pay my tithing, because I know I am blessed. My Christian friends who are not LDS are blessed for paying tithing. Etc. Belonging to a particular organization does not guarantee or insure righteousness. That is the beauty of agency. Each person, whatever his/her religion can choose to be righteous. Or not. We as LDS just happen to have the blessings of the restoration, and we can hang on to those, whatever present leaders (some of them; I am not convinced all are culpable) choose to do. I'm hanging on.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous @ May 13, 2012 10:53 AM, That scripture is very comforting thank you for posting it.

Anonymous @ May 12, 2012 9:36 AM, do you have a scriptural source for this comment: "We will be held accountable for paying sacred tithing to leaders who do not prove to us they are using it as the Lord would want and as the scriptures say."

LJn said...

Anonymous 1 - Thank you.

Anonymous 2 - The Book of Mormon certainly tells us that the Gentiles, for the most part, will reject the gospel. (The good news is that not all will, and we can each choose to be part of those who do not reject it.)

I was trained to believe the leaders were not to be questioned. I have since learned differently, and it has not only eased a great burden that was on my back, it helped me to accept leaders I had problems with (okay BY was the only leader I really had a problem with).

You are absolutely correct. We will be held accountable because we have the scriptures, which we should be diligently studying.

I don't think it would be okay for me to give "my" tithing to another religious organization because I am not a member of another organization. If there should be a complete apostasy, I would take it up with the Lord as to what I should do with tithing. At this time, however, I have gotten the message that this is still Jesus' church, and He is in control of it, no matter how appearances may sometimes seem to be to the contrary.

Anonymous 3 - Thank you for your strengthening reply. It is much appreciated.

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:14 & Toni,

Thanks so much for your replies and considering these things.

I have to say though, that I do not believe we will be blessed for giving our tithing to men who have gone astray, if that ever did or ever has happened.

For then the money will probably not end up where it was supposed to go, especially to help the poor.

I believe that if the majority of the Church leaders apostasize, insomuch that the Church leads people astray now, or is not led righteously anymore, than we are to follow the Spirit and give our tithing directly to the poor around us, as the Spirit directs. That would be far better than giving it to a corrupt Church or corrupt leaders.

For if you read the Bible, Christ instructs the rich man and others, to go and give their wealth to the poor, it seems directly, and that seems ok. But of course if there is a true Church on the earth, led by righteous leaders who can be trusted to do right, then that would be the ideal way to pay tithing. But if not, than paying it to the poor as directed by the Spirit seems acceptable to Christ.

I would also encourage you to look closer at church history. For as we know, those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it or especially suffer the consequences for it and their ignorance. For Joseph warned us that we perish without knowledge.

The proven and published reality is, that Joseph Smith spent his whole life publicly preaching to get the Saints to persuade them to resist polygamy and not fall for it or the rumors that he was involved in it in any way. He taught over and over how vile and evil polygamy was and how it went completely against all the scriptures. That it has never been a righteous thing and will always be an adulterous abomination.

But the members and most leaders refused to listen to him and he could see this was happening, he knew many were falling for polygamy, even leaders. But Joseph died before he could do more about it all. Thus, after his death, most of the Nauvoo members and leaders, even apostles, fell for polygamy, including Brigham Young, and thus fell into apostasy.

Emma Smith and William Smith, (Joseph's apostle brother) and other of Joseph's true friends and relatives, did not fall for polygamy and the many false doctrines that BY taught after Joseph died. Thus they did not follow BY west, nor did many other members. They all had to go their separate ways, living the Gospel as best they could, now that they had lost their Prophet and his leadership.

But to have followed & supported BY or give him tithing money would only be supporting whoredoms and wickedness, according to Joseph Smith. Nothing has changed over 150 years later, the Church and it's leaders have not repented of their errors, they still believe in and preach polygamy in certain circumstances today, among many other false doctrines and abominations.

Joseph Smith clearly warned the Saints 'then' and 'today' to never fall for even a Prophet or Apostle who came preaching or practicing polygamy. That if any ever did, after he died, that we would know for sure that they are evil and a false prophet.

So to fall for & support, with money even, false prophets then or now, will not bring us blessings, but condemnation. For Joseph Smith said that all who listen to and follow such teachings or false prophets, will also be damned.

Anonymous said...

Anon & Toni, CONTINUED -

Now of course most of us haven't ever heard of these warnings about polygamy, that Joseph published during his lifetime, for they have hardly ever been spoken of or heard of by Church members, since Joseph's death. Members of the Church have only been told about all the 'unproven hearsay', mostly by polygamists, that Joseph was the one who lived and started polygamy 1st, which according to Joseph's own testimony, is completely false and only claimed to try to justify their whoredoms.

So we must search out the truth of all these things and know 'for ourselves' how Joseph really felt about polygamy and what he really said and believed about it and other doctrines now being taught in the Church.

We must be courageous enough to search out the truth, even if it means we must do as Emma and Elder William Smith and others in Joseph's family and friends & loyal members did, which is to do our best with the truths & scriptures that Joseph left us with, until the true Church is again led by true prophets.

And as Joseph said, as long as there is just 1 righteous man on the earth that receives revelation from God, then the Kingdom of God is still here. Though there are many righteous people around the earth today, with and without the truths that Joseph gave us, we need to be one of those righteous men or women, and receive revelation & guidance directly from Heavenly Father, until Joseph and Christ again return to the earth to carry on this great work in righteousness.

If you'd like to read more on the true history of our Church and proof of Joseph's true testimony and teachings against polygamy, you can read the book "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy", online for free, at the website

The book was written by a humble couple who are not of the LDS Church, but have studied early church history & all of Joseph's true & published statements throughout his life, and wanted to prove that he was innocent of polygamy & really did tell the truth about polygamy & that he really was a true Prophet of God, and Emma was truly an Elect Lady.

This comment has been removed by the author.
LJn said...

Anonymous, I have read parts of that book online (Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy). I have come to my own conclusions about Joseph Smith and polygamy. I think it was possible that he was commanded to live it as an Abrahamic test, but note these words in D&C 132:

50 Behold, I have seen your sacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your sacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I accepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac.

From what I understand, the escape Abraham had was that he did not have to kill his son after all, thus it seems only logical to suppose that Joseph's escape was that he did not have to live plural marriage after all.

But, Joseph probably took some people into his confidence (such as BY) as he was going through the trial, and they understood that it was something God wanted ALL of them to live, as a sacrifice to prove their devotion to Him. As Denver Snuffer said somewhere (I think it was on Mormon Stories), they were "wildly enthusiastic" about it.

The church is ruled by common consent. The majority of the members followed BY. He was a legal successor as president of the church because of the law of common consent. Jesus has not abandoned this church (and He may not have abandoned its offshoots, either).

I have prayed much about what is going on in today's world, including the church. My answer was to continue paying tithes to this church. But, as I said, all things are to be done by common consent. It is not by my consent that money is spent on businesses and other unneccessary things when so many people (both in the US and out) are in need.

The way things are set up today, one cannot speak to one's leaders about this. At best, it would be ignored (or sympathized with on a lower level, but ignored on a higher level). At worst, there would be "discipline" for perceived apostasy.

So, I have prayed about it, and the answer I received was to ask God to change things.

I am not receiving revelation for anyone else, but it seemed to me that if several hundred of us were petitioning God, telling Him that we don't give our common consent to the way money is being spent, but that we are powerless to do anything concrete, so would He please take care of the problem so that no more money is spent on frivolous things (examples have been mentioned in this blog), then God would be bound to hear and to act.

God is the Parent here, and He is the One who owns the church - or at least the "Church of Jesus Christ" part. He will listen if enough of us pray. That is the only way I can see of exercising our God-given right of common consent.

Anonymous said...

I, too, question (and have always questioned and had ancestors who did question) polygamy. I've never wildly accepted it--LOL! It's been a stumbling block for some of my children (the purer the hearts, the more the stumbling)--

And to the "anonymous" who believes tithes should be given to the poor; this is where personal accountability comes in. If *you* feel good about doing that, you can talk to Jesus about it when you see Him next, and, for all I know, especially if you've been told to do that, He'll smile.

For *me* (and my house), another route has been chosen. We'll have to account to Jesus for paying our tithes to the "church", even with all the abuses going on--

because, frankly, we've done our best for the poor, and in spite of the warnings in the Book of Mormon about not judging those who are 'poor', we have found many of them to be doing better than we are--LOL! More support, many of them. We struggle; we are in the category of "if I had, I would give"--

but we have found miracles to come to us when we pay tithes to the "church", believe it or not. Maybe it's terribly selfish of us, but when we are struggling to feed ourselves and we don't know how we will manage, and we look around for the poor and see that they are not as worried as we are--

and then we pay our tithing and find that somehow the $ is there for another meal--

well . . . would *you* stop paying it? LOL!

But then, no tongue in cheek here, no sarcasm, perhaps you are living on a higher plane. Or . . .

maybe each person really does have different gifts from the next person, and each man/woman must make his/her own decisions, and maybe that's even all right with Jesus. I am inclined towards that viewpoint, after having been compulsive most of my life. :)

Unknown said...

Anon 8:03,

I'm not surprised that you have found that those with 'purer hearts' stumble the most with polygamy.

For, those with the Spirit always sense how abusive and vile polygamy is, they just can't accept how it could ever be a righteous thing, or why Joseph Smith would have believed in it & lived it.

But when they find out that Joseph never did preach or practice it & that it was BY who pinned it on Joseph falsely and came up with D&C 132 many years after Joseph's death, to justify his whoredoms, then everything finally starts to make sense.

We must listen to and stand by Joseph's own published & proven testimony, which warns us to never accept anyone, even a so-called 'Prophet or Apostle' who preaches or practices polygamy or anything 'contrary' to what the scriptures or Joseph says.

Joseph never preached or lived polygamy. The holy scriptures never authorize, command or teach polygamy. They teach it is always an abusive adulterous whoredom.

D&C 132 is the only place that teaches polygamy, and it was added by BY long after Joseph died, because BY wanted many wives.

It appears someone went astray and led most people in the Church along with him, accept those who had the Spirit and refused to accept polygamy because they honored Joseph's teachings against it.

Most members are still being led astray today by many false doctrines that are contrary to the scriptures, including polygamy, for it is still preached & practiced in the Church after men divorce their wives or she dies and they are allowed and promised to have multiple women sealed to them for the next life.

The Andersons said...

I just stopped in and probably never will again. It saddens me that people would question the purity of the gospel because their temporal brains cannot grasp the eternal perspective. It is a fact that there will be more women in the eternities then men. (In the celestial kingdom). This is why polygamy is a celestial law. You may not grasp it now...but I would rather share one husband with many wives rather than see one sister alone.
As for the tithing being spent on the law school...the church receives donations in other forms than just tithing. There is the educational fund, the temple fund, etc. As for Brigham Young, he was not immoral or evil in ANY way. HE was a PROPHET OF GOD. Had he not been a great man, and a righteous man, God would have removed him from the Earth. God promised that He would NEVER let a prophet lead the people astray. The Gospel is pure. If you dont have a testimony of each area, focus on where you do have a testimony and plant the seeds of faith in those other areas...then pray and tend to them. They will grow. I think it is very sad that people would lead others astray because THEY dont have a testimony.

Anonymous said...

Where did God say he would never allow a prophet to lead us astray? Please cite a scripture that states such.

Anonymous said...

Andersons, (Continued)

I have never understood why members want to so readily believe that the Prophet Joseph Smith would do such abusive & horrific things to his wonderful wife Emma or any woman? You would think decent people would believe a Prophet's own words and not the words of an abusive man like Brigham Young who needed to justify his whoredoms, which is what the Book of Mormon Prophets call polygamy. The scriptures condemn polygamy in every instance.

As for your belief in Brigham Young, true prophets of God don't abuse their wife and don't commit whoredoms and don't preach contrary to the scriptures or Christ or Joseph Smith. False prophets do preach polygamy and many other of the false doctrines that Brigham Young taught.

Just because BY said prophets can't lead the people astray doesn't mean it's correct, truth & revelations must square with the scriptures, which it doesn't. That is one of Satan's biggest & best myths in the Church, which gets everyone to easily fall for false doctrine & false prophets.

God never promised that he would not let prophets led us astray. He has let them fall & lead people astray & he will not remove them when they do, for it's a test for us, to see if we can be deceived or not. For that's the test of this life, to see who can be deceived by false prophets & false doctrine or not. I'm sorry life is not as easy as you thought, but we must take responsibility for our own salvation, there is no free ride on the coattails of even Prophets.

Please do some more study on these things so you don't keep leading people astray to accuse the Prophet Joseph Smith of committing the very evils he spent his whole life trying to warn & protect us against.

Anonymous said...

Andersons, (Part 1)

It is not a fact that there will be more women in the eternities than men. Heavenly Father knows the beginning from the end & he can easily create as many men as will be needed for all the righteous women who will achieve Exaltation.

It saddens me that people, especially women, don't understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ and have self-respect and high self-worth as Emma tried to teach women to have even back in Nauvoo and not to fall for abusive men trying to teach them to live polygamy. No righteous woman would fall for or put up with such vile whoredoms & treatment of her as polygamy always is. Men of course, we have seen, almost all have the disposition and carnal desire to have more than 1 wife or woman. Thus women need to teach & expect them to respect women and not abuse them with adulterous things like polygamy.

Also, there will be equal amounts of men & women in the CK because no woman will be exalted without her husband that she had on earth, for either he will be righteous & worthy of Exaltation too, or she will save her 'unrighteous' husband no matter what he may do wrong on this earth and bring him into the Celestial Kingdom with her after he pays for his sins & repents fully in Spirit Prison. If she refuses to save him by her true love & faithfulness on this earth, then she won't go there either, for it takes 'true unconditional love' for our spouse, whether they are righteous or wicked, to achieve Exaltation.

So all righteous women will have their own husbands they had on earth in the Cel. Kingdom, mostly because they saved him unto themselves for all eternity, for most men need their wives' help & valiancy to get there. Sometimes though, men save their unrighteous wife.

Very rarely do you find 'two righteous spouses' who are both worthy of Exaltation on their own.

But such unconditional love is rare today, for most spouses who have an unrighteous spouse either don't maintain true love for them and/or they divorce them and go find someone else to date or marry, for a temporary remarriage in this life, for it can't be eternal cause it isn't based on Christlike true love, for you can only have true love for a 1st spouse, or not at all.

Also, we all know that Christ said that most divorces & remarriages were adultery, except those because of fornication. So most remarriages, even if they happen in the temple, are just adulterous marriages and thus can't be eternal anyway.

Also, you appear to not realize that Joseph Smith spent his life fighting & preaching against polygamy. He never lived it. It was Brigham Young & others who started that whoredom in the Church after Joseph died & spread all that vile hearsay about Joseph being the one who started it and lived it. BY even added D&C 132 many years later in Utah and claimed Joseph wrote it, but it was not in his handwriting. There is no proof that Joseph ever preached or practiced polygamy. But there is lots of proof that he believed it was a most vile adulterous abusive evil against women and that he testified he never lived it. As did his wife Emma leave her testament to his innocence with polygamy.

Heavenly Father would never want us to base our testimonies or beliefs on vile hearsay about Joseph Smith, especially when it goes against all scripture. He would want us to listen to Joseph's own published & public testimony he gave throughout his life and in the scriptures he gave us. The D&C while Joseph was alive clearly taught strongly against any polygamy.

Anonymous said...

The gospel is not the church

Anonymous said...

Also, generosity is not consecration, and notwithstanding certain conference talks, consecration is not the Welfare Program.