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Monday, April 29, 2013

169: LACK OF CONVERSION: Elder Richard G Scott -- CONCLUSION

PART 3 (Conclusion)

continued from Part 1 and 2 of the notes taken from Elder Richard G Scott talk given on
May 17, 1992 Layton Northridge Stake Priesthood Meeting
...

Elder Scott then turned the time over to Elder William O Nelson who talked about problems and the real solution to those problems. Elder Nelson asked the brethren to tell him what problems they as priesthood leaders were dealing with, especially the Bishops. These problems were listed on the board.. Things like: Financial problems, Divorce, Child Abuse, Spouse Abuse, Drug Abuse, Teen Pregnancies, Immorality, Dishonesty, etc.

Then Elder Nelson pointed out the fact that NONE of those things were problems! He indicated that those are only symptoms of one problems. He asked what the ONE PROBLEM was. No one answered.

He went to the board and wrote down: “Lack of conversion to Christ.”


..
Then Elder Scott took the remainder of the time teaching us of the absolute importance of being sanctified. He started by quoting D&C 43: 8-10 and explaining that we are to be sanctified (as a commandment) by binding ourselves to ACT on all inspirationwe receive through the Holy Ghost. We must seek inspiration on our actions and decisions and we must obey when we receive any inspiration. Otherwise, if we don’t seem to be concerned enough to follow its promptings, then the spirit will cease to speak to us. He said we are to sanctify ourselves by keeping ALL the commandments the Lord has given, which of course, means we must find out what the commandments are by studying with great diligence.
...

He then quoted D&C 43: 15-16 which says that we are not sent forth to be taught by men but that we are to be taught from on high, and to sanctify ourselves, that we might be endowed with power. He showed how this means that the bulk of our knowledge and wisdom should come from being taught through the scriptures and directly by the Spirit. We do not take advantage of the blessings the Lord has promised to teach us ALL things by the power of the Spirit. Do we not have enough faith that the Lord really means what he says in scripture? Would we rather place our faith in what we learn through the world? He suggested that we should learn to use all three available avenues of learning.

1. What we hear.

2. What we see.

3. What we feel through the Holy Spirit, which is the most important of the three ways of learning.

Next, Elder Scott explained that we live in a very wicked society, one that is comparable to that wicked society that was destroyed in the days of Noah, and in Sodom and Gomorrah. He then very strongly and pointedly said, “NOBODY IN THIS WICKED SOCIETY WILL SURVIVE WITHOUT FAITH IN CHRIST AND THE POWER THAT COMES FROM COMING UNTO CHRIST.”

21 comments:

  1. Excellent conclusion to your posts!

    RS

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  2. Did Elder Nelson or Scott point out that 'leaders' who support and go along with evils like 'divorce and remarriage and abandonment of spouse and children' will be damned too, along with those who do such things?

    I doubt it, for the Church totatly supports those evils, by allowing them to go on without any consequences or excommunication as the scriptures call for.

    Joseph Smith taught that 'church leaders' who allow men to abandon their wife will be damned along with the man, yet the Church rolls out the red carpet for such men to be remarried in the temple and commit adultery over the altars of the temple, as many times as the man decides to dump his current wife and find a new one.

    Hypocrites preach against the very things they are supporting, while acting so righteous.

    I believe Elder Nelson and Scott know exactly what Christ taught about divorce and remarriage, but do they support applying consequences for such adultery? It appears not.

    Yes, the cause is a lack of conversion in Christ, but the leaders are apparently even less converted then the members, so they have no room to be talking or preaching to anyone.

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    1. My experience is so different than yours. I don't see their approval in any of it and seek to counsel us over and over, especially in our Priesthood leadership meetings and in General Conference to change this. On the other hand, many of the marriages I see destroyed today are not done so by men, but rather by the women. And, women are abusive and manipulative, just as the men are sometimes unfaithful. There are problems across the board and the leaders are doing much to try and assuage the flood. This is a fantastic talk and gets to the core of the problem.

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    2. Yes, I agree that wives are often abusive too, but Pres. Hinckley said that divorce is usually caused by the men, which is what I see too, even though there are some cases where the woman was the abusive one. Most cases I know of the wife was either abandoned by an abusive adulterous husband, or she had to leave such a husband for safety reasons.

      Every divorce is caused by some form of abuse, by either one or both spouses. And church leaders are obligated to have the 'knowledge about abuse' and 'the Spirit' to be able to easily discern which one is abusive and then to totally support and protect the innocent spouse and not allow the abusive spouse to go on and date and remarry or get away with their abandonment. But that is not what's happening in any of the many many divorces I know of.

      The Church doesn't even require men to continue to financially take full care of their abandoned wife and family, except for some small amount required by the State, which is never enough. Thus the church is supporting the abandonment of spouses and families, and making the abandoned mother go to work and do the husband's job too, and the Church usually won't even support her either.

      Many if not most church leaders also threaten innocent abandoned spouses that if they don't go along with & support the Prophet's decision to allow their abandoning husband or wife to remarry someone else (usually in the temple go figure)then they (the innocent spouse) will be disciplined for not following and supporting their leaders. It's gotten way past sick.

      Though the Church may 'say' the right things about stopping abuse and adultery and divorce, etc, they do not seem to really be doing much about it, and actually are supporting it's rampancy because leaders are not being trained how, or are not willing, to deal with it properly.

      The Church allows, supports and rewards divorce and remarriage, for any reason or no reason at all. They do not apply the consequences for the adultery committed in dating and remarriage, and for that they are going to be accountable to God for going along with such vile evil and not upholding Christ's laws.

      For church leaders, from top to bottom, support the guilty and thus further persecute and ignore the innocent and the abused and abandoned spouse and children who are suffering.

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    3. Continued -

      Of all the abandoned wives I know, none are being financially taken care of by the Church, they are all having to work, despite having multiple children still at home to watch and take care of, while the husband goes free to spend most of his money & time on yet more women and other children not even his own, while his original family suffers, all with the support of the Church.

      It is the height of evil to support men in abandoning their wife and family and Joseph Smith said that the church leaders who support such will be damned along with the men who do it.

      The Church says alot of good things, but does the opposite. It encourages people to stay married and work out their problems but then totally allows people to abuse and abandon their spouse if they want.

      Who is going to listen to leader's ideas of staying in a hard, painful or lonely marriage and continue to work and try to make things better, when those same leaders will totally allow you, no questioned asked, to dump your current difficult, boring or old spouse and get a fresh new young or fun one?

      That's why divorce is becoming more and more rampant today in the Church, and will continue to do so, until the divorce rate is 80-90% or more. Because whatever the Church 'allows' people to get away with, people will do, no matter how much the church may talk against it.

      The Church needs to repent and uphold Christ's laws and protect innocent spouses and children from abandonment and divorce and remarriage.

      Brigham Young started this divorce culture in the Church with what was called 'the most liberal divorce policy in the country' back then. He knew polygamy & divorce had to go hand in hand so it would work. Two adulteries (poly & div) don't make 1 right.

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  3. This is good; this talk is very impressive.

    I can see some cultural glitches, though. In LDS 'though' evil is always perceived (or mostly) as personal impurity, almost always--
    or lack of discipline in finances. Nobody ever says anything about how Americans treat poor people in other worlds (making money off sweatshops, etc., even just by buying the things made in sweatshops, because they are cheaper, so "we can get out of debt faster"--

    I find it very hard to believe that Jesus will just dismiss all this, when taking care of the poor and the needy were such a priority with Him during His earthly ministry.
    I know it is HARD. Some of us who do this are already poor ourselves, but I refuse to openly exploit poor people--

    I might be free of the 'impure' addictions, etc.--but if I jostle around in a big box store for the cheapest thing made in China (not knowing how people were treated) what kind of a humble follower of Christ am I?

    I don't think the two can fit together. It makes it hard to live, trying always to find out if people have been hurt, so that *you* can have the nicest life possible on the least amount of money (what I call the Mormon attitude towards wealth)--

    it always makes it such that you can't/don't/won't envy the wealthy, because you know, in your heart, that some of that wealth came from exploiting others, and you don't want to do that anymore; you don't want to see anyone get hurt, like the sons of Mosiah . . . with the Lamanites. You don't want to see others be hurt or be lost spiritually.

    One struggle I have with Elder Scott, who seems to be head and shoulders above some of the others in compassion and integrity--

    he gave a lot of financial support to Mitt Romney, and Mitt is Monsanto. How can Elder Scott talk about secret combinations with that huge secret combination that is Monsanto . . . being Mitt . . . and he supported Mitt?

    That makes my brain itch. :(

    Maybe he didn't know about Mitt and Monsanto, but . . . he told *us* to study 123 (and believe me, I have)--

    maybe he can't see beyond the mafia and the Mexican drug lords, like so many Americans and LDS--

    :(

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    Replies
    1. I agree, if Elder Scott supported Mitt Romney and thus socialism/communism, than he has no room to talk about secret combinations. By their fruits/votes ye shall know them.

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    2. maybe he didn't like the alternative choice/s.

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  4. oops that LDS "thought", not "though"--

    sorry--

    in case anyone reads my ramblings--

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  5. to the second anonymous . . . yes, allowing divorce and remarriage (especially temple/sealings) is a huge, huge cross to bear--

    and there will be tears shed by many, tears of remorse.

    That is a big one--

    You're 'pure' as long as you're married, no matter how many times you've been married? No--

    it doesn't work that way--

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    Replies
    1. Wow, so nice to see someone still believes in Christ's teachings.

      I agree, there will be many very surprised and very remorseful people in the next life, when they find out they've been committing adultery all along in their 2nd, 3rd, marriages etc. and they've been deceived to do it by false prophets.

      Yet I believe all who divorce and remarry actually know deep down that they are doing wrong, they just don't want to think about it. For Pres. Packer was correct when he said "Everybody knows when they do wrong."

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    2. So if a person has been married and divorced once or twice, they are going to hell, hands down? What about the woman Jesus talked to who had been married 7 times, nor married to the man she was currently living with? Did He inform her that repentance was impossible?

      Must someone be forever shackled to a spawn of Satan simply because one was innocent enough, stupid enough, or desperate enough to marry that person, then wise enough to leave so that one's mental, spiritual, emotional, or physical self would have a chance to live? (Not to mention the possibility of protecting one's children.)

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    3. I would think Christ probably counseled that woman to repent, for he knew she should and still could.

      If we are committing adultery in a remarriage (as Christ said we do) we can choose to repent and go back to our 1st spouse. But if our original spouse is not safe or willing to reunite, we can just stay single and faithful to them until our original spouse repents and we can be reunited in the next life.

      Christ's law on marriage doesn't mean anyone has to stay living with an abusive spouse, we are justified and counseled to separate for safety reasons if necessary, but Christ just wants us to keep our vows and remain faithful to them until they repent, for he taught that there is no such thing as divorce or remarriage, for unconditional Christlike true love is the law of the Celestial Kingdom.

      Almost all marriages have to deal with some form or degree of abuse or adultery, sometimes spouses can work things out, sometimes a temporary separation for this life must happen. God wants us to protect ourselves and children if we have to and can, but that doesn't mean he wants us to abandon our vows and marriage and look for someone new, such only creates chaos in society, with eventually no one staying married for long or even bothering to get married, for marriage is forever or there is no point to it, people might as well not bother with a piece of paper that means nothing and can't stop one from abandoning the other.

      Christ's demonstrated his law of marriage, by how he unconditionally loves his spouse (the world), who also was horrifically abusive to him and has abandoned and divorced him, yet he still keeps his promises to love, serve and try to save his spouse and he will eventually save her over death and get her to heaven. His spouse (and ours) will have to repent in hell for their sins, but then after they become righteous and clean they will be able to enjoy heaven with us for eternity.

      The real purpose of marriage is to save our spouse by our true love, and most spouses need saving, but few are willing to do what it takes to save their spouse.

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    4. @ Anonymous 6:22,

      I don't know your feelings toward Denver Snuffer but he was divorced shortly after his first Temple marriage. I don't know any details concerning the matter besides that he talks about it in his book TSC.

      Thanks.

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    5. Vince,

      I am aware that he is divorced and remarried, which I don't believe in and it appears neither does Christ.

      I have studied Denver's ideas and I do not believe in alot he teaches or believes in, for they seem contrary to Christ's doctrines. I also do not believe he had the experience with 'Christ' that he says he had, though it could have been a false Christ, as many are having today and being deceived that it is really Christ.

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  6. Becoming converted to Christ involves being willing to forgive others who have sinned. When the pharisees brought the woman taken "in the very act" of adultery to Jesus, the Savior simply said to her, "go thy way and sin no more". HIS words, spoken to the pharisees are also appropriate to recall here, "let him who is without sin cast the first stone".
    Perhaps our focus should appropriately involve finding the Gift of the Holy Ghost that we were commanded to "RECEIVE" when we were confirmed following our baptism by water. It could be rightly said that until we have "received" the Baptism of Fire and the Holy Ghost" we are not "converted" because we have not even entered into the stait and narrow way. Once we receive that wonderful gift, we can speak with the tongue of angels. Since angels speak the words of Christ, then we will be converted to Christ.
    Let us leave off finding fault with others and instead look within and set our own hearts upon the things that matter most. Let us each truly strive to become converted to Christ and seek for charity.
    The time is short.
    JR

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    1. Finding fault with with others is not a bad thing, as long as we have Charity.

      Those who have Charity will follow the commandment to make righteous judgments about those around them, which is vital to do, to not only protect themselves and others from evil people, practices or precepts, but also to help those who are unrighteous to repent.

      If we refuse to judge we can't help ourselves or others.

      Even forgiving others does not mean we don't judge them, it means to watch over them and use the Spirit to judge their actions and help them repent if they fall. Of course though, we can only do this if we ourselves have repented sufficiently enough to have the Holy Spirit as our guide, so we can indeed judge righteously.

      Christ counseled the adulterous woman to repent, he knew that the Jew's harsh punishment (death) for adultery was not right, and he thus allowed her the needed time to go and repent. But Christ was not saying that we shouldn't judge, just that we shouldn't apply such harsh punishments, but we should let people have the opportunity to repent.

      Christ was not against applying punishment to adulterers, in fact he commands his prophets and leaders to restrain adulterers and other serious sinners so they don't continue to hurt others if they refuse to repent.

      But Christ did not believe in such harsh punishment for even adulterers or such immediate punishment, he knew all sinners should have the opportunity and time to repent 1st.

      Unrighteous people often don't want the responsibility to judge other's or especially judge leaders, like we should. For they know they will be judged with the same judgment and they often don't want to repent and be righteous enough to make righteous judgments.

      Judging righteously is a 2 edge sword, so only the righteous feel comfortable in doing so. Many people don't want 'to judge' cause they don't want 'to be' judged, for they know they haven't repented yet.

      The righteous gladly but carefully judge, for their own sakes and others.

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    2. Amen! Anonymous @ May 1, 2013 at 6:27 AM. We are certainly quick to point fingers. How many of US have done something worse than donating to a cause we believed in without being aware of all of the details that few people are aware of?

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    3. I've been thinking about this, and I've had an 'aha' moment for myself; it might not apply to anyone else.

      The Lamanites were kept from the fullness by the 'traditions of their fathers'--

      they used their ancestors as an excuse to stay stuck in a paradigm. On the other hand, the Nephites did 'everything right' but couldn't get past their pride, which destroyed them in the end--

      if we protect the memory of ancestors who have made mistakes to the point where we aren't willing to grow and change and repent ourselves, then we are being just like the Lamanites and can't see the whole picture--

      but if we think we have all the truth we need and look down on those who don't get it (as we think we do), then we are also in danger.

      Such a fine, fine line--

      I am torn between not judging and recognizing the truth, and the battle is constant--

      I certainly don't want to condemn anyone, but I have found that as I have looked at things with an attitude of, "I want to know what is going on", rather than comparing myself to someone I think might be in error and saying, "I am doing better than they are"--

      I can grow and not feel prideful--

      Toni, I think you are right, because we are all deceived about something, but I also think that getting to the truth takes getting past worrying about whether someone will fall of his/her pedestal--
      I still think a lot of Elder Scott; I just realize he doesn't know some of the things I have taken the time to find out. But, on the other hand--
      he probably knows a lot I will never know.

      I doubt very much I could talk to him about all the information I have gathered on Monsanto and Mitt Romney's influence on the company (which is not benign)--
      I daresay Elder Scott's eternal well-being will not be damaged by his political contribution, but it's hard for me to take him as seriously, since I have spent a lot of time trying to find out what is going on in the world, based upon D&C 123, which he recommends. Being mortal is very hazardous if we want to keep our heroes--
      Only one Hero measures up, Jesus Christ. And, yes, I am obviously the person who was disturbed by Elder Scott's donation to Romney.
      It's hard to know what you come to know--
      and I am not Elder Scott's judge. But when it comes to politics, I won't be able to take him seriously. Not that he is asking me to--
      I don't spend all of my time trying to 'convert' people to my way of seeing the world, but it is hard at times that very few people even care--

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  7. You're right, and forgiveness is vitally important, also forbearance. The problem is that when sinning becomes institutionalized . . .
    there is a feeling that there is no sin in sinning.
    And it is important to be introspective. My fear is that my children will be led into this cycle. Though I have taught them it is wrong, the world around them (including in the church) believes that divorce and remarriage and divorce and remarriage is all right--

    I really fear for my children and grandchildren and really want the Lord to hasten His Coming, for the sake of my grandchildren. I don't want them raised in this culture (in and out of the church).

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  8. Family BOM reading for half hour a day, as Benson taught, will do astonishing wonders in your children seeing things as they really are, as they really have been and as they really will be.

    But sometimes we want it to be more exciting than that. Unfortunately.

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