Tuesday, April 22, 2014


While one might think that small changes are insignificant,  we know that over time these changes slowly add up to big changes. The Deuteronomists were a group of men who made changes to scriptures. They re-translated, edited, modified scripture from the Old Testament. In fact, there are 96 books missing due to their redaction. The Deuteronomists were the forerunners to the Pharisees. They put themselves in charge and interrupted scripture. They changed the ancient Hebrew religion.

I would like to point out one change that might seem small, but I think this is a BIG change in our most recently published version of scripture. It is a change in the footnote of the scripture found in John 14:16. The footnote for the word Comforter says "Holy Ghost, Comforter."  Here is a screen shot.
The Comforter footnote has now been modified in the newly published scriptures and on the scriptures found online.
If you look at your scriptures that have been published a few years ago, the footnote to the word Comforter originally says, "Jesus Christ, Second Comforter."  

The footnote to the other Comforter in older versions of scripture says Jesus Christ, Second  Comforter.

 So which is it? Is this other Comforter... the Holy Ghost, or is the other Comforter referring to the Second Comforter which is Jesus Christ?

You decide for yourself. I think it is pretty clear who this other Comforter is. The following are quotes from Joseph Smith and from the Doctrine and Covenants.

"Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions—Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the First Born." (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 Vols. 3:380-81)

"The other Comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest, and perhaps understood by few of this generation. After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses" (Teachings, pp. 149-50).

"I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John. This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom; which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son" (D&C 88:3-5).


Hopefully this change to the footnote was a printing error mistake and they will fix it, and not a modification or alteration to doctrine.


Jared almond said...

Uh... Minor change?? The Promise of: The Redeemer of the world, our Lord and Savior, The creator of all things of which all things bare record. our Messiah abiding with us individually thus giving us eternal life being removed... removing faith.. hence hope in that promise and it's attainment has eternal consequences.

Good thing it must be a printing error and we'll see the doctrinal alteration repaired. Thank you for pointing this out.

Jared almond said...

Oh.. the weeping soul we must sound when suffering cries from a mother go silent when delivering a child shows only empty eyes. Oh the cries that must go out when the husband defeats the gnashing teeth of wars afar to only return to a family that has deserted the home.

The deafening noise! What weeping and cries must SOUND NOW when the turning chain of a life's piercing pain is all for not and the hope of beholding our Saviors eyes, touching his sacrificed hands and feeling His warm embrace is silently removed by a strongman with a magic pen.

R. said...

Nice job pointing that out!

Inspire said...

I think if we're using the footnotes to define things and give us understanding of the nature of God, we probably have bigger problems to worry about. I have no grudge with them changing those things, because for the most part they are the precepts of men, to begin wth. Oh... that, and the precepts of a computer, because as it turns out, much of the cross-references given in the LDS TM scriptures were generated by a computer which just looked for the same word elsewhere and noted it. (Can you say, "correlation?")

I would prefer no footnotes, headers or even chapters and verses... especially for the Book of Mormon. Those things chop it up, take away the context and "pervert" the holy word of God, because we become blinded to the true meaning. Just my two cents, anyway.

boo said...

This continues the long established policy of the correlation committee to rewrite not only the scriptures but church history to eliminate the doctrines of Calling and Election and the Second Comforter.Whereas talks were routinely given on these topics both in General Conference and the Ensign in the 1970s and 1980s now there is a systematic attempt to remove this doctrine from the modern correlated church. This is simply the most recent example of the damnable attempt to eliminate saving knowledge from the minds and ears of church members. Clearly Moroni saw our day when he laments how we have transfigured the word of god in Mormon 8

Jared almond said...

No, it is not ourselves that we defend the truth but must be for those that we Love. Love outwardly.. Show courage outwardly Find the strength inwardly.

RESPONSIBILITY IS THE PRICE OF TRUTH. We must pay a price or we are no better than those that might hedge up the way.

It would be naive of us to say that the majority of our brothers and sisters, parents, grandparents, neighbors and ward members don't need study resources which they are looking to our church/leaders for.. They still need to come to the knowledge that standing in the presence of the Savior is not only a possibility but is the fullness and purpose of our Gospel. References and footnotes are important in studying the scriptures to them.

The GREATEST men in history not only dedicated their lives to teach the meaning of eternal life (the gospel) but gave their LIVES for It. In robes of Charity for our cause their call comes as if from the dust of the earth. Are we courageous enough to answer it, take on the Saviors name, and care for His sheep--those we should love!

Inspire said...

Jared, I wouldn't confuse zeal with greatness, at least the type of "great" I think you are referring to. Sydney Rigdon was no doubt one of those who spent his life as a very dedicated student and teacher. He even was told that his commission was a "great work." But as it turns out, the greatness of it comes when the people a few generations later realized that what he set up would fail (called "the folly and abomination of the Gentiles" by the Lord.)

I appreciate those who have managed the records and who lived pious lives. I think, though, that if we don't learn from their mistakes and failures, then make a different choice, then all their dedication will have been for naught. Encouraging to parrot the voice of another, albeit dedicated "leader" is the thing which Joseph said would blind their minds. We've had enough darkness.

In regards to paying a price for truth, there is no question that coming to understand requires a lot of energy and persistence, but I think that happens only because of the mess we have created for ourselves. I don't believe that God is requiring some price or pound of flesh from us. His truth is free, his everlasting waters of life are without price. His mercy is unlimited and his hands are outstretched even still.

Jared almond said...

I'm referring to the prophets specifically in the Book of Mormon in Addition to Joseph Smith and Hyrum.

Jared almond said...
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Jared almond said...

Sorry, also including Prophets/apostles in the bible since adam trying to preserve the truth of seeking Christ. It's a pity that a few in the fullness of times are perversing an essential doctrine.

" I have no grudge with them changing those things,"
This statement is what I was disagreeing with above. If we all take this stance there will be nothing left and we would be shirking some responsibility. There is point we need to draw the line in the sand to help preserve some others that might seek out the second comforter etc.. Though you and I (I don't use the footnotes for above reasons) might not use them we need to stand in defense for those that might also find the way

John The-Not-So-Beloved said...

Amen to all of the above - comments and article. -- I guess changing the footnote doesn't "technically" change the scriptures and we ought to be about connecting to them on our own. However, as a former TBM (True Blue Mormon) footnotes that don't present "truth" certainly do present a "stumbling block". Seems to me there is always someone in a gospel doctrine class that is smarter by half than everyone else because they bring up every footnote when a scripture is read. They are referred to authoritatively. Don't forget, most of the people in the church think whatever flows from the mouths of leaders is akin to scripture.

Steve said...

Ahh, another mystery.

The 2 quotes from Joseph nail the other Comforter as Jesus. However the D&C verse to me says that the Holy Ghost (who can abide in our hearts) is the other Comforter.

That's a conundrum.

Anonymous said...

It sounds to me like Christ was referring to the "Holy Ghost" as the promised comforter, for it wouldn't be logical for him to be referring to himself as 'another' comforter, obviously he is referring to something different then himself, for he knew he must leave them and go to heaven. The Holy Ghost is and will be their constant companion the rest of their lives as he stated.

Also, you seem to assume those quotes by Joseph Smith are true and really from Joseph. I am very skeptical of anything in the History of the Church, or anything printed by the Church that quotes Joseph Smith, for I believe much of the history of the Church is not accurate or even true, I don't believe that just because they said Joseph said something, that he really did, and I'm surprised you do. I believe all the leaders from Brigham on today, were and are very wicked men and were covering up and changing alot of truth about Joseph and their own history to further their unrighteous agendas.

Do you have proof that Joseph really said and published any of those quotes during his lifetime? If not, I wouldn't be quoting him, for we cannot believe anything the Church puts out.

Also, even if Joseph really said those things, he was wrong about a lot of vital things during his life and thus we can't assume everything he said was true. Joseph may or may not have been a true prophet, that is still up in the air, (and especially if he really did fall for polygamy then he was not a true prophet, but I at present believe his testimony that he didn't) but whether he was a true prophet or not, is irrelevant for us today and we will never know until Christ returns, for Joseph had far too many weaknesses and errors and misjudgments and bad discernment for us to ever know for sure if he was a true prophet or not or to trust that he was and put any faith in him or his teachings or writings. Not to mention that there are far too many valid questions and concerns about the BoM, D&C, & BoA, to ever be sure or trust that they are true books of scripture.

If Joseph was a true prophet or the scriptures he put out were really true, then I would expect a lot more of him and those scriptures, then what he did or said or what his scriptures contain. A true prophet would speak and teach alot more about Christ's teachings and really live them, then Joseph or BoM Prophets did. So it seems they probably weren't true prophets., even if they did teach alot of truth among their falsehoods, but everyone teaches part truth and part falsehood, no matter how good or bad they are.

And bottom line, God could and would never expect us to put faith in such fallible weak and wrong men as Joseph Smith and consider them to be prophets. Christ taught that we should only put faith in people or prophets who have true Charity. I don't know of anyone in Joseph's time period or today who seems to have true Charity or even believes in it, especially no leaders of the LDS Church.

The best we can do is read about Joseph and his teachings and scriptures as if he were any other author or leader, and glean from him and his writings and teachings whatever truth we can. If he agrees with Christ on anything then we can agree with him, but much of what he stood for and did was contrary to Christ or at least it seems he wasn't very acquainted with Christ and his teachings.

And if Joseph was a true prophet that received true authority, which that seems very dubious also, then that authority is long lost anyway, for all men have lost such authority through unrighteousness since Joseph, especially those who followed Brigham Young or who support him and his Church today.

So we can't really take serious anything the History of the Church says, or anything in the Church today, or think it has any authority, for if truth and authority ever did exist in Joseph's day, it has all been lost or distorted by now.

Anonymous said...

Part 2 - Continued -

The best we can do is study and follow the pure simple teachings of Christ in the New Testament, and not listen to anyone else's teachings or interpretations of Christ's teachings. For Christ promised us the Holy Ghost would be our constant companion and teach us the truth of all things, thus we don't need a fallible prophet who is sometimes right and sometimes wrong. We can't even trust anything in the Old Testament to be true, for we see how full of falsehoods, lies and errors it is, thus making it impossible to know if anything in it is true. Again, only those things that agree with Christ can be trusted.

We can follow God and Christ and achieve Eternal Life on our own, and we must do it on our own, if we don't want to be deceived by false prophets and false doctrines. We don't kneed that Old Testament, Book or Mormon, D&C, Joseph Smith or any formal Church today, in order to find truth and Christ and live his teachings.

I don't believe anyone who is a part of the LDS Church today can claim to follow or believe in Christ, let alone know him. for the LDS Church is completely contrary to the Gospel and true Church of Christ and one would know that if they really knew Christ. I believe that true followers of Christ would be repulsed by the LDS Church and it's leaders and not want anything to do with it. Thus it's easy to tell who really understands and knows Christ.

Jared almond said...

Your quote- "Joseph may or may not have been a true prophet, that is still up in the air,"

Joseph Smith being a true prophet in the realm of truth is not in question. It is either a fact or not. The question is if we can come to or know truth or not? We are the ones being judged not him.. The same goes for a false prophet... There is a fact that remains. It is up to an individual to get to know truth or error.

It is up to the individual to recognize either and hence be judged by what he chooses. It is you who is right or wrong.

Inspire said...

I guess it doesn't bother that they change their footnotes because they were metatext to start with. Getting upset that they tweaked their own commentary somehow seems to acknowledge that they have the right to speak for God and that those who are searching should rely on the merits and studies of men, rather than letting the Holy Spirit be their guide and interact with the Gate Keeper personally. I can find several places where there is the "philosophies of men" written into these headers and footers, so my point is that it would be better to avoid them all together. Perhaps the footnote creators originally got one thing right, then rescinded on it later, but that doesn't mean I would encourage others who are not able to find their own voice to use someone else's. That's how we got into trouble in the first place.

As for the corporation altering their own words, I say "go for it," because I pay no heed to them anyway. Here's a thought, what if we were to just let the Book of Mormon speak for itself rather than relying on all the tradition and false doctrine which is imposed upon it. The only way to do that would be to set aside all that others have said about its purpose (yes, that includes Denver Snuffer) and let the Holy Spirit be our guide. Now that's where true revelation comes in!

Jared almond said...

"only those things that agree with Christ can be trusted.
We can follow God and Christ and achieve Eternal Life on our own, and we must do it on our own,"
I agree full heartedly with what you said above:) Focusing on Christ, learning to become like him is paramount. :)

Jared almond said...

I see your point.

Anonymous said...

I agree that we also must prove we know and live truth before we can claim to discern if anyone else, including prophets have truth or are true. And I agree that we will be judged by God by what we choose to accept as truth or who we choose to follow as a prophet.

But Christ commanded us to discern and judge between false prophets and true prophets and false disciples and true disciples, by whether the person had true Charity or not.

Thus all prophets and persons have to prove to the people they expect to listen to them, that they are true disciples and prophets of Christ, by proving they have true charity and proving they really follow and preach and practice Christ's teachings. I do not believe that is hard to discern if we ourselves are true followers of Christ.

I believe very few people really know if Joseph was a true prophet or not, even though many may think they do. It really doesn't even matter anyway, as I said, for all we need is Christ's teachings in the New Testament. And any truth or authority Joseph may have given is long lost or corrupted. So we are still back to square one, Christ, even if Joseph was a true prophet, though it doesn't seem he was, even though he probably was a very good man who didn't preach or practice polygamy in any form, that was BY who just said he did.

Anyone in the world, regardless if they ever heard of Joseph Smith can still gain Eternal Life and live a righteous life with all the revelation from God they need if they just follow Christ's teachings in the New Testament. But sadly, I don't know anyone who appears to follow Christ, especially no one in the Church I have ever known.

Do you believe Joseph fell for polygamy? If so, how can you say he followed Christ? For Christ taught against polygamy. Who would ever follow such a man or prophet who lived polygamy and who would believe he followed Christ or God or was someone who had Charity? Polygamy and Christ are opposites. But perhaps like me, you give Joseph the benefit of a doubt and believe his own testimony of innocence in polygamy, rather then the vile hearsay of wicked people who wanted to live and justify polygamy.

Since Joseph isn't with us anymore, we can only know if Joseph was a true prophet by either having enough proven history on Joseph to prove he had true charity, which I haven't seen proof of yet, or if Christ or the Father (assuming they were the true Christ and true Father and not the false ones so many are seeing) appeared to us and told us Joseph was a true prophet OR if we are truly righteous and have Charity and thus the Spirit reveals it to us if he was or not. But being righteous enough for such true revelation or visitations is extremely rare these days.

To say that we have received good feelings about Joseph and his scriptures, or inspiration, revelation, dreams, visions, or even visitations by angels or Christ that say he was a true prophet or that his scriptures are true, does not prove it is true or we are right, for people in every religion claim the same revelations and visions about their own leaders, doctrines and scriptures.

None of the countless people I have ever known who profess to have received inspiration, revelation, dreams, visions, or even visitations by angels or Christ, and thus say they know the Church or Joseph or BoM, etc. is true, have ever convinced me or seem to have Charity or even believe in Christ or really live his Gospel or understand his teachings. They all live contrary to the teachings of Christ yet they say they know truth and can't be wrong or they claim to know Christ yet have been promised eternal life.

Christ made it very clear that those who do not follow his teachings don't really know him. Thus it's very easy to tell who had been deceived by a false Christ or false revelation, for they don't really live Christ teachings despite what they claim to know or believe.

Anonymous said...

Continued -

I believe, as the scriptures warn, that Satan is giving everyone either feelings, inspirations, revelation, dreams, visions, or even visitations by angels, beings & even false Christs and false Gods, to deceive people into believing falsehoods and false prophets.

Do you know how to tell a true Christ from a false one if one might appear to you? Or how to tell a true prophet from a true one?

We are commanded to 'prove all things', that means by physical as well as spiritual means. We are commanded to judge and discern whether a person or precept is true or not, by if they agree with what Christ taught and practice what he preached. But we ourselves must be righteous in order to do that. Which is very rare to be so righteous, for it takes a prophet to know one.

Lilli said...
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TysonHunt said...

No conundrum.

D&C 130:3 John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son DWELL IN a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is FALSE.

Now read John 14:23 as the d&C verse defines "abide" for us.

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


TysonHunt said...

The D&C verse (assume D&C 88 is what you are referring to) is talking about the second comforter not the HG.

Jared almond said...

Thank you anonymous. You make good points and ask valid questions. I think there is a really big reason why certain questions are important to us are gifts from God to push us to look into them until you are satisfied sufficiently with an Answer.

I completely agree and as you say Christ is THE way and I will say: following anyone else is Idolatry and is the tendency of most to fall into the trap.

A sign of someones charity isn't their knowledge. A sign of someones knowledge is their charity.--Your points about Charity and the requirement for us to reflect that Charity is paramount. It's sad that man has such a hard time demonstrating this. Joseph Smith won't save you, Monson wont save you, Moses won't save you. A true prophet will always direct you to Christ.

The questions regarding Joseph Smith are valid and it is a pity that as you say his words have even been changed that at times it is hard to know what he even said. Getting to the source and finding that true though is a worthy (hard)adventure and one that I've undertook and am satisfied with what I've learned and how much closer it brought me to my Savior. "Passing the Heavenely Gift" is a huge resource and so is Denver's blog. But always we must come to the truth on our own. One of your other good points... This is a solo journey between Christ and you and all Organizations can hedge up the way and won't save you.

I like you am drawn towards my Savior. There is a longing within us that pulls our (Heart, Mind, Body) in His Direction-- Equally this longing exists in Him and is His Desire be in our presence also. Everything is engineered to make this happen. Every bad decision we make can immediately be turned to our favor once we turn his direction and Seek Him. For this reason He has endowed each with a Gift.. The Holy Ghost that will guide us to Him if we pay attention... This is not a mormon thing or LDS things. It is a Child of God thing and He loves everyone Equally!! Beyond comprehension.


Jared almond said...

http://upwardthought.blogspot.com/ Here's another blog that might interest you.

Toni said...

I have the old reference in my scriptures. When were these new scriptures published?

Jared almond said...

Here's the press release in 2013 with the announcement.

Toni said...

Thanks, Jared Almond.

dannyk said...

Well...I guess the question is does that verse actually refer to "the Second Comforter" or just the Comforter. I guess I always read that Christ was saying "I'm going to send you the Comforter (HG), the spirit of truth, that dwells with you and abides in you...because I won't leave you comfortless. In fact, I will also come and comfort you. I will make my abode with you, and the Father too."

I always kind of thought that verse 16 was referring to the HG, with Christ beginning to teach of the Second Comforter starting in vs 18.

Which, when you look up the "Jesus Christ, Second Comforter" in the current TG, it still has the subject there and actually references John 14:18-19, 21, 23. Along with a few others in D&C and elsewhere.

It would have been nice had they added the TG heading to one of the later verses, but perhaps they weren't wrong to take it away from vs 16.

Are we making a bigger deal of this than is justified? Don't get me wrong...the doctrine is VERY poorly taught in general, were it not for personal study I'd hardly know a thing about it. But in this case, maybe the correction was justified.

Jared almond said...

Please read the entire chapter and vs in context when contemplating if this is the Second Comforter. I'm confident it is referring to the second comforter but don't take my word for it. It's a worthy study.

I'm truly not trying to exaggerate this. I do LOVE my church and my people there... which is why this is a very BIG deal. I care for them.

The confusion you brought up in your comment is the very evidence of that i'm trying to demonstrate. The more you've gone down the path of seeking this lifetime/difficult goal(second comforter) the more passionate you will be about this issue.

Understanding faith which is the principle in action. Faith doesn't exist without action. An action is only taken if you have faith or believe strong enough in the attainment of the result of that action. The doubt or confusion alone can cause many not to even put forth an ounce of effort towards seeking this comforter due to this doubt.

The individuals that put the previous footnotes/headers were much more doctrinally sound and studied then the current correlated group.

boo said...

that is because you had a least a few people who generally knew gospel doctrine like Bruce McConkie. while I disagreed with him from time to time at least he knew and taught the doctrine. Oh how I miss him and wish we had someone / anyone who taught the saving doctrines in General Conference.Now the people on this committee are the products of the correlation generation who either know nothing and are incompetent or intentionally subvert the gospel. I keep changing my opinion on that. If you want another example look at the picture on p 38 of Preach my Gospel which is nothing but a lie as a review of the churchs website and the article on the book of Mormon translation will demonstrate. But they continue to transfigure the holy word of god.

Toni said...

Here's the manual: https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service?lang=eng It is divided into sections with no page numbers like a hard copy would have. The section that covers pages 31-46 (lesson 1) has several pictures in it. Which picture are you referring to?

Danny Kofoed said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
dannyk said...

Thanks for the invitation to read the whole chapter Jared. I did. I'm still not sure that vs. 16 and 17 refer to the Second Comforter, as much as they do the Holy Ghost. The language in vs 16 seems to me to reflect similar language in Moses 6:61. It seems to me that Christ moves in progression in this chapter, much as Nephi does in 2 Nephi 31 and 32. It seems to me that vs 16 is saying that Jesus is going to pray to the Father that the father will send another comforter to abide in them, which is also known as the Spirit of Truth. The words he uses sound a lot to me like the baptism of Fire experience Nephi expects of us (he has similar lamentings as Jesus does here in that he notes many are too stubborn to receive this important transformation).

He then goes on to say that in addition to that comforter, He will not leave them comfortless because He (Jesus) will come to them (vs18).

He then goes on to explain that those that love Him and keep his commandments (probably refering to personal commandments given when he visits, in addition to general commandments all have available), that he will manifest the Father to them.

So, it seems to be a progression - HG or Baptism of Fire Comforter, then Jesus Christ as Second Comforter, and finally the Father.

I'm not trying to argue in favor of the Church's limited/non-existent teachings on the Second Comforter....I'm just not sure this is the example I'll use to "make my stand". There are much easier ways to show the church ignores this most important teaching than pointing to the removal of a footnote which one "could" argue successfully might not even refer to the second comforter (though I'm willing to admit I might be wrong and would happily accept that verse does indeed refer to it....it just doesn't make as much sense to me in that manner right now).

dannyk said...

I've been looking over the verse again and again, and I did just see an alternate reading that could indicate your point and the OP's point.

Reading vs 17:
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him (up until this point I still think this could easily refer to either Christ or the Holy Ghost); but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you (this could be a reference to the Holy Ghost to some degree, though they would not receive it fully until pentacost I suppose....but it could also be Jesus referring to himself by saying "But you do know him...he's been walking around with you for the last 3 years teaching you and "dwelling" with you"), and shall be in you (this now is a future tense, which could either refer to a coming day of pentacost, or could refer to the fact that if they continue faithful, one day Christ shall be "in them" just as the Father is in Christ).

Anyway...I can still see it referring to HG, but the statements "he dwelleth with you" being a present state reference and "he shall be in you" being a future reference to their continuing at-one-ment that Christ expounds upon in John 17.

Thanks again for asking the questions to look deeper. I can at least see now how one could successfully interpret vs 16-17 as Christ instead of HG.

Jared almond said...

Danny, Thanks for giving me your explanation. I likewise am a honest seeker and try to make sure i'm alway open to learn new things. I like the discussion. Here are a couple things that I find helpful. Maybe you will as well..

D&C 93:26 is referencing this very thing we are discussing.
The "Spirit of truth" is of God. I am the "Spirit of truth", and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth; He is being very clear that he is the "Spirit of Truth"

Notice it's referencing John baring record of the "Spirit of Truth" that is a "Title" One of the Lords title. The titles of the Lord are titles he hard earned and have associated blessings with them.
We can go right to John 14; 17 and see it references the "Spirit of Truth"
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the "Spirit of truth"; (again a title of the Lord)
Then in 18 it say "I will come to you".

Another thing I would like to point out is that the later part of the chapters helps clarify it for me as well.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my cname, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
This is clearly referring to the Holy Ghost of course but notice that it is referred to as "the Comforter". Previously in 16 it is referring to another Comforter.. These are distinctions. If they were the same they would be both referenced as the Comforter.

The Holy Ghost is the comforter and Jesus Christ is another Comforter. One that comes in addition to the comforter.

Part of my understanding of this also comes from studying many other scripture/references in relation so there are nuances which help me personally.

Again, this is not to convince you. Simply show things that have helped me understand it that way I do. Also, I'm a faithful member of the Church. love the members and believe the leadership is for the most filling it's role. I do think that the doctrinal purity needs to be kept and I don't like to see changes like this happen and/or aren't explained.

boo said...

The one of Joseph translating the plates with his finger on the plates in clear view of Oliver who is serving as scribe. No seer stone in a hat, no urim and thumim, no blanket between Joseph and his scribe so the scribe couldn't see the plates. I personally know of 3 returned missionaries who left the church when thet found out how the translation process actually was done. They all said the church iied. How can it be trusted. The church knows this is a big problem but does nothing about it,

Anonymous said...

The Church has no good answers to give. I believe the Church knows the real truth about church history and that they are just hoping most members 'doubt their doubts' and don't bother studying the truth out and finding out about all the lies and how the Church is not really following Christ, or Joseph Smith's teachings.

It seems most people like the easier way of just following blindly, so most members will probably not do their own homework and wake up and leave. It seems the Church is more of a social club to most members, where members care more about following their fallible leaders and staying in their good graces then in following Christ and his words, which are usually opposite what the Church teaches.

Anonymous said...

I have just found it very curious that everyone I have known so far that claims to have been visited by Christ or has received the second comforter, is either presently committing adultery with someone or they support and encourage adultery by others. Yet they never think they are of course. They always feel very right and righteous and assume they have been visited by the 'real' Christ and not a false one.

Jared almond said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jared almond said...

anonymous, your words speak louder of your heart and what you project from within than any true desire to know Christ. Focusing on others can be one of Satan's great traps which the mouse has no idea he is in. YOU don't want to be that mouse...
There is an accounting for YOUr time.. not only for that which YOU chose to waste but what YOU chose to waste of others

Anonymous said...

Not really Jared. I don't spend much time focusing on those who make such claims except to notice how they live their lives or if they have Charity and follow Christ. I have found it interesting that none of those people who claim to have the second comforter are following Christ's teachings, nor do they even believe in Christ, but just the opposite (adultery, etc.) It isn't hard to see when someone is committing adultery and acting contrary to Christ.

If we can gain the second comforter while committing adultery at the same time, a lot of people are working way too hard to be righteous. Apparently we can just relax and not take the scriptures and Christ's teachings so seriously, or heed them at all.

Time used trying to teach about watching out for deception from false revelation, false doctrines and false Christs, is not time wasted. We are commanded to try to wake people up to such things. I know & see so many people being deceived by the Adversary and following his ways when they are so sure they are righteous and promised eternal life. Adultery is so blinding, no one ever usually thinks they are committing it.

Even many ancient prophets and even Brigham Young and all the early leaders of the Church who followed him fell for adultery and didn't think so and still believed they were righteous, despite how Joseph tried to wake them up and get them to repent of their whoredoms of polygamy.

Eyl said...

I have seen every person from the scriptures, including Christ, I know how it is done. It is so childlike, it is so simple. It is no mystery. Just got to understand that it is not a mystery and just do it. Don't over think it, just see and believe.

Anonymous said...


I believe you may have very well have been visited by lots of people but whether they were the real people they said they were is the question.

Do you realize how easy for anyone to be deceived by false Christs and false angels?

What is your way of telling true personages or Christ from false ones?

I am also curious if you believe the Church is true and if it's leaders are led by and following Christ and if those you met agreed with that also?

Do you believe Brigham Young on up to Pres. Monson were and are true prophets?

Would you also mind saying if you believe polygamy/plural marriage is a true principle or not?

BahrainBroker said...

Anonymous and Jared, and others-

I believe the answers to your questiions are to be found in the most amazing website on Lds and resturation: www.onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com
his explanation on why joseph did the things he did and why he was still the greatest prophet is amazing. his take one lds history is the best. i wish everyone in lds would go and read that blog. it brought me back to jesus the christ and to the book of mormon with more force than ever after i had already left the lds church.

Bahrainbroker said...

the true lds history can be discovered at the following two blogs:


really, changed my life and helped me to find my peace with jesus the christ once again. the book of mormon and bible are true and no contradiction exists between them. read those blogs and use the holy ghost to confirm

Anonymous said...

The Joseph Smith Papyri [Book of Abraham]: http://youtu.be/f5FAFVVv_os

How Joseph Smith came up with the translation is here is not amazing, you all can do it and recieve everything that God has including the comforter(s). All of you can be prophets. Go forward now and be exactly that, prophets and seers.

Rob said...

1) Alma 13 provides some excellent comments on the worth of the example of those who have obtained. Note, I am not using the "p" word, because it has been Shanghaied in meaning to the point of no return at this point.
2) Note that the purpose of those who have obtained in Alma 13 is to help others become like they are.
It follows, then, that you have to be a complete moron to listen to someone give you instructions on how to obtain without them having already obtained what they are promising you. That's like the cheap signs you see around town: "Real estate apprentice wanted. Make 175k per year!!" Why someone who makes 175k per year already would want an apprentice, and yet not be able to afford a decent sign, is a red herring.

If you judge everything you hear on the New Testament and your preconceived notions of what God is or isn't, you will be damned to the level of everyone who did the same before you. The good news is that is a terrestrial level, and people like Ghandi are good company. The bad news is that you will not obtain what you think you will.

If you have the fruits, you are on the right track. If you do not, you should start asking God what you've messed up on.

Rob said...

"I have just found it very curious that everyone I have known so far that claims to have been visited by Christ or has received the second comforter, is either presently committing adultery with someone or they support and encourage adultery by others. Yet they never think they are of course. They always feel very right and righteous and assume they have been visited by the 'real' Christ and not a false one."

There is not a single example, that I am aware of, in scripture of someone seeing a false Christ and not knowing it was a lie. When Satan visits Cain, Korihor, and the rest, they know who it really is. However, that does not stop them from allowing themselves to act like it was really Jesus. See their words in the scripture: it is clear they knew they were being duped.

So what you are saying is there is a sizable group of people who claim to have seen Christ who do not call plural marriage adultery, and you are judging them for that?

So there are 2 diverging theories: 1) what you believe, and 2) what they believe. They have received the fruits their theory promises, and you have not, and you are judging them as making the mistake? Does that really make sense to you?

Would you not consider, even for a moment, that you might have it backwords? You have yet to follow God's instruction to "try the spirits", yet are quick to point out, due to your preconceived notions, what God will or won't command and what he has or hasn't commanded.

Note: I do not practice polygamy. However, I believe anything God reveals, and I don't hedge him up with what I think is moral and what isn't. That position has reaped me many benefits. I encourage you to try it, instead of condemning things you don't yet understand.

It makes much more sense to me to consider yourself approved of God when he comes to you and says as much than it does to consider yourself approved of God for accusing those who have met him that they aren't doing what is right in his sight.

Anonymous said...


I have visited those sites and don't agree with many things taught there, like every place else, it's mixed with partial truth and partial error. The way to discern truth is to compare what is said on those sites with what Christ said, for if we just go by the Spirit we can easily be deceived, for the Adversary will tell us and make us 'feel' things are true, when they aren't, and usually we think it's the HG confirming that to us.

Also, I find that much of the Bible contradicts the Book of Mormon and especially Christ, especially the Old Testament and even many things in the New Testament. So we have to take everything even in ancient writings and scriptures and from so called 'prophets or apostles' and compare it with Christ's words and see if it's true or not.

Just take the one issue of polygamy, the Bible seems to allow it in certain situations and some ancient Prophets seem to think it's fine, whereas Christ and Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon totally condemn it as adultery in every case in history, even if Prophets do it.

There are so many teachings in the Bible that are totally contrary to Christ, that either were translated incorrectly or not true stories to begin with or the person or prophet that did such was wrong, when the Bible makes them seem like they were right and God condoned it.

Like with Abraham sacrificing his son, God would and could never command such a thing, nor does he tempt or test man like that, for it is completely contrary to his commandments and God can't change or he would cease to be God and no would would be able to tell right from wrong, not to mention God would be a God of confusion. But of course the Adversary would have given Abraham revelation to sacrifice his son and it appears Abraham fell for that false revelation (since he had lost the Spirit and his mind was darkened by his polygamy), and he just thought and said God had commanded it.

Most people and sometimes even prophets often attribute their evil behaviors to be commanded by God, though of course they don't see it as evil, when it is really just the Adversary inspiring them to do it.

Anonymous said...


I actually do know how easy it is for myself and everyone to be deceived and so yes I constantly recheck my beliefs. I have been duped about a lot of things, and by alot of people through my life, usually by people and leaders and teachings in the Church, that were actually totally contrary to Christ on closer inspection.

I happen to understand polygamy very well, better then I wish I did, having had to live a form of it. And I know it is totally evil and that God would and could never condone it, let alone command it.

Before you believe 'anything' that God might reveal you have to 1st make sure he is the one revealing it, through a true prophet or through true revelation or through a true personage. That is where people get confused, assuming that God commanded something just because someone said he did.

It's impossible for God to come to anyone and say they are approved of him if they are not following Christ's commandments or if they are following and supporting false prophets and evil. Christ's few simple words will tell us the truth of all things. No one can get around them or add to them.

Christ taught that polygamy is always adultery, as did Joseph Smith and many other prophets, like in the Book of Mormon. They didn't allow for any exceptions.

God can't keep changing his laws and requirements or no one would be able to tell what is right or wrong, or true or false, he would thus be a God of complete confusion and couldn't expect anyone to be sure what was right.

I know it is hard to understand that prophets can fall and that many have or that the Bible may not be true in many many instances, but so it is.

And I can 'try the Spirit's', and I have, of those who make the claim to have been visited by Christ and promised Eternal Life. There is not a one that I believe really has. And I am always saddened by it, for I would really like to meet such a Christlike person who could share truthful insight.

But Christ himself warned us of false Christ's. And Joseph warned us over and over about falling for false angels and false prophets, and he taught that most people fall for them.

And even though Korihor and Cain knew they had been duped they still convinced themselves and everyone else that they had seen the real deal, until they were forced to confront the truth and admit it.

Most people who do evil, certainly most of those around me that are committing adultery, say that they have been commanded by God to do so, though they don't admit they are committing adultery, they convince themselves and everyone else that they are righteous.

I believe all those who are deceived today by false Christs, know it also, but they convince themselves and others into thinking they have seen the real Christ and have received the second comforter, but one day they will have to confess they were deceived.

A belief in 'polygamy', though it's a very valid test to see if one rejects Christ or not, is not the only thing these people believe in who claim to have received the second comforter, they believe in and do many other things that are contrary to Christ's teachings and they do seem to have Charity but the opposite, and Charity is a requirement to gain the promise of Eternal LIfe.

So, as the scriptures say, it is as easy to tell who has really seen Christ as it is to tell the night from the day, and to see or discern who has been deceived by a false Christ. No matter how sure the people may sound that claim it. Their fruits reveal themselves.

And bottom line, if seeing Christ and receiving the promise of Eternal Life was so easy, as these people make it seem, and if it requires such a low level of righteousness and commandment keeping (or commandment ignoring), then alot of people are working way too hard and being way to righteous when they don't have to take the commandments so seriously and they can break them and have a lot more fun and still gain Eternal Life.

Anonymous said...

I'm with you on this one Jared. This cannot be counted as just a little oversight; this is the very gospel that we profess to have had restored to us; the very gospel that is in the Book of Mormon, and the gospel that sets the LDS church apart from all other Christian religions. This is not a topic that we can neglect or take lightly. This IS the Fullness of the Gospel.

This along with President Uchtdorf's recent statement, makes one wonder:

"You do not need to see the Savior, as the Apostles did, to experience the same transformation." --President Uchtdorf (April, 2014 General Conference)

Add to this the church Correlation Department's "approved" list of doctrines allowed to be spoken of in church, and note that it does NOT include the Second Comforter or Calling and Election.

bahrainbroker said...


you sound like you know what you are talking about. i am convinced that the true church only existed in kirtland for less than 4 years. this lines up with the book of revelation, after which the church has gone backk into the wilderness from 1834 onwards when the church took jesus' name out of the church name and called it "church of latter day saints". amazing. terryl givens the scholar made an interesting point though he didnt mean to as it seems he was trying to show how much the bible is the greater of the two (against book of mormon): he said said somewhre that the early saints used the bible 40 times more than the book of mormon in their teachings and discourses. if this is true, no wonder the Lord said they were condemned for taking the 100% truth of the book of mormon too lightly.
after reading jesus' words that the true church should have his name, how could they do that? obvously they didnt read the book of mormon much.

see the church stopped being his church therefore from about 1834 onwards and then got a second chance in late 1830. nauvoo though seems a complete contrary to kirtland with its corrupt temple rites and secret freemason acceptence. ironically all the modern church believes that nauvoo was the epitome of the lord's church. absolutely insane. no one saw the Lord since kirtland for the majority.

brigham young is the very contrary of joseph smith. read theyre words side by side. you have to be blind to not see it. the rest of the presidents since brigham never met any heavenly messengers, or got revelation as isaiah, nephi, john or joseph did. just loads of teachings of men and opionions.

bahrainbroker said...

Rob- its seems you always say (i have seen you say this on your site too) that you and others including d snuffer have seen the Lord and conversed with him and thus this is the fruits f denver's book 'second comforter'. you then said that isnt it make more sense to follows the pattern you and denver and others have used since there is fruit being borne.

problem is that all of you seem to think the same common thing- that if you s-a-y you saw the Lord then lo and behold that is the fruit itself. this is preposterous. anyone can say they used denver's discoveries and saw the same thing he alleges. but hold on. what is that fruit and where is it? is there a demonstration of these fruits? do you now have the highest priesthood that genesis 14=25-40 describes? or do you think that just saying or testifying by mouth and type is the proof it happened?

i like you rob and i have visted your site for a very long time. you teach very well. but the anonymous poster who challenged you is right. you may have seen something but like cain and korihor you are too convinced it was the lord without a single fruit to be seen while you promote the lds corporation's supposed authority and ridiculous temple rites that takes people years to memorise yet strangely brigham says he memorised word for word as given him from joseph smith. impossible. he is a liar and the lord will sort him out. his fruits demonstrate that. he didnt know or read the book of mormon anymore than he did the a copy of the rolling times magazine. so many people fell for his garbage and by going to the temple today so are you.

i will continue to visit your site rob. but to conflate testifying with actual fruits is as bad as lds saying on fast sunday 'i know thomas monson is true prophet of god.'

Jared almond said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I agree, Inspire. I am very frustrated that it is impossible to find a high quality, leather bound, large print Book of Mormon without it being a 'triple'. What is a 'triple'? Did God give us a 'triple'? Did Moroni visit Joseph Smith and say, "this will be called a 'triple'?"

And, if you go to lds.org, in hopes of printing off your own, large print, scriptures and having them bound, you have all those little footnotes and the huge chapter headings.

A person can't just get a Book of Mormon. We're trying to get around that. I want to read just the Book of Mormon, but I can't see the small print on the facsimile my husband is reading.

There is another online version of the Book of Mormon; it does have verses and headings, but we are thinking of printing it off for me on heavier paper and putting it in a binder.

What a fuss, when the Book of Mormon is right there and could be printed separately in a nice cover with large print. But the copyright is owned by the corporation of the church--

Anonymous said...

oh, I can remember sitting in my grandparents' kitchen (circa 1966), having a discussion with my parents and grandparents about the Second Comforter, and all of the adults (I wasn't, quite, an adult, almost) were nodding and re-affirming to each other that the Second Comforter was, indeed, Jesus Christ.

It wasn't a light conversation, and it stayed with me. They (the corporation or any kind of committee) can't take that away from me.

Anonymous said...


It was the Book of Mormon that brought me to Jesus Christ, in spite of everything else. Sometimes LDS/Mormon blogs can be a supportive place, a surrogate community of faith--

but the Book of Mormon is what led *me* to Jesus Christ.

Anonymous said...

I agree. I was raised on the New Testament. In the 50s and even into the 60s (though somewhat less), all the primary and SS children were given these floppy black New Testaments, published by the church--

and the teachers collected them after the lesson.

There was no mention of the Book of Mormon.

Daymon Smith does a parallel, side by side, of the sermons of Brigham Young and Orson Pratt. Though I disagree with Orson Pratt about race and marriage (big things, but oh well)--

he preached from and about the Book of Mormon, and Brigham Young preached from the Bible. He believed in the Bible; the Book of Mormon was only to justify the Bible, according to his words.

And, of course, he would not want anyone to read the Book of Mormon too deeply--

Jacob's words about polygamy were enough to scorch the heart of anyone with a conscience left who was practicing polygamy.

No fear; nobody read the Book of Mormon during that time.

My maternal grandmother believed that polygamy had been a 'wrong turn' in the church. She was born before 1890. Before my grandfather (her only husband; she his only wife) died, they had decided together that each of their grandchildren would get a copy of the Book of Mormon on his/her 14th birthday. I had never had a copy of the Book of Mormon; our family didn't have one, and my parents were very, very active in the church. We did EVERY thing the church required; you couldn't find a more devoted family or parents.

It was the first time I had held a Book of Mormon, and I was 14. My mother, very TBM, laughed and said, "I wonder why my parents made such a big deal of this; oh well, it won't hurt you to have it."

When my mother was dying, less than 20 years later, she read the Book of Mormon constantly. Welcome to the LDS world in the mid 20th century.

Brigham Young caused a lot of damage. He spurned Orson Pratt and his lectures on the Book of Mormon; he called him names and said he preached false doctrine.

I wouldn't hold Orson Pratt up as an example in most things, but he did take the Book of Mormon seriously.

Anonymous said...


This is the previous anonymous, and I totally agree with your last post above. Those who claim to have seen Christ and received the second comforter can't expect anyone to believe them if they don't also show the fruits of a true follower of Christ, namely true Charity, which is a pretty rare and difficult trait to gain. As I have said, I have never known of anyone who makes such claims that seems to have this Charity or who seems to be following Christ, in fact they appear to be living contrary to Christ's teachings.

And I believe you are so right, the corporation doesn't have an ounce of divine authority or keys and never did, for it is impossible for a wicked man like Brigham to maintain or pass on such. And of course the temple is all false too, along with Brigham's adulterous polygamy and just what the Adversary wants us to be wasting our time doing today, and not be serving the living, especially our spouse and family and the poor, which there is an endless line of, which always comes before the dead.

As Christ taught, the dead can take care of the dead. And they will in the millenium, for the dead can all come back and be baptized if need be, it is not something we should even be concerned with.

Anonymous 10:52 said...

Bahrainbroker & Anonymous 10:34,

I am anonymous 10:52 and I agree that the Book of Mormon has far more truth in it then the Bible, especially the Old Testament. It seem practically every major story in the Old Testament is twisted or not true, which doesn't surprise me since it was almost surely translated by unrighteous men who wanted to pervert the truth and make evil (like polygamy etc.) sound good and condoned by God.

But I do believe that Christ's words in the New Testament are the truest scriptures we have, though the other writings of the Apostles later one seem to be sprinkled with errors and false doctrines, for they weren't perfect like Christ was.

So even though the BoM is probably teaches mostly true principles, Christ's words in the New Test. are still the light which we hold the BoM up to to know if it's right or not. Christ's words trump even BoM prophets or Joseph Smith and also ancient Bible Prophets, who we can see didn't always stay valiant and true to Christ and God, but often fell for whoredoms like polygamy, just like Brigham Young and his supporters did.

So of course BY didn't like the BoM, for it condemned him, as did Joseph's teachings against polygamy. But the victor always gets to write the history so thus why Brigham and those who followed him made it sound like Joseph lived polygamy too.

But once we read and study Christ's words in the New Testament and we study the Book of Mormon, I don't know how anyone can remain a member of the LDS Church after that, for the Church preaches and practices completely contrary to the BoM and Christ, and Joseph Smith for that matter.

And yes, even wicked men often teach some truth, just as the Adversary does, so of course Orson Pratt preached some truth, even from the BoM, despite that he was living a very wicked life. That's what wolves in sheep's clothing like the leaders of the Church do, they preach mostly true and wonderful things and then slip in some falsehoods to lead the people astray while they think the leaders are teaching them such wonderful inspiring things, for most of it is.

Anonymous said...


I am glad that the BoM led you to Christ, I believe there is enough truth in the BoM to be able to lead people to Christ, if they have a sincere heart to begin with.

But Christ himself can also lead you to his teachings far better then the BoM can. His words in the New Testament are all that most of the world has, and they are completely sufficient to lead anyone to Christ and become righteous and gain eternal life.

The BoM is an additional resource, aid and support to Christ's words, but if I had to choose I would and do study Christ words in the NT far more than the BoM, for the BoM was written by fallible men who even seemed to teach errors in the BoM. But Christ's words are true and all we really need. And the BoM doesn't teach everything that Christ taught in the NT, so I believe we can miss alot by not studying the NT 1st and foremost.

As far as that site you refer to, I have been there before and read his opinions and I do not agree with alot he thinks and teaches. But he does teach some good things but I believe also teaches things that are very false and wrong and contrary to Christ in my opinion, things that can deceive us and lead us astray.

So I don't frequent that site once I learned what he was teaching. I stay with the pure words of Christ. We have to be so careful about being deceived by other's opinions, claims or teachings. Even Joseph Smith taught many things that were wrong. He was often deceived by false revelation himself and mislead the people, and thus caused great suffering for the Saints because of his misjudgment and errors. He also deceived the Saints into doing wrong at times, but if the Saints had been following Christ instead of Joseph then they wouldn't have been deceived by him. For everyone should know that even prophets aren't perfect and can often be wrong or fall and lead them astray and usually do.

But I don't believe Joseph ever fell for polygamy, I believe his teachings and warnings against polygamy and his testimony that he was innocent of polygamy.
I believe he was framed by Brigham Young and others who wanted to live polygamy.

Joseph knew how evil, adulterous and abusive polygamy was to women and would not have ever done such a thing if he was righteous. I believe he loved Emma and stayed faithful to her. And of course God could never have commanded polygamy for any reason, or he would cease to be God. For God's 1st purpose is to protect women from men and their abuse, by commanded men to respect and honor and stay completely faithful to their wives and protect all women from abuse. Polygamy is totally contrary to God's eternal laws, which never change. For not even God made them up, God has to obey those eternal laws the same as man.

Anonymous said...

BahrainBroker, Continued -

But it seems most people want to believe that Joseph fell for polygamy for then it gives them a pass to have weaknesses too or to live or believe in polygamy and things like divorce and remarriage, etc, which Christ said is just another form of adultery like polygamy is.

Most people, at least in the Church, seem to think Joseph (and BY, etc) could fall for polygamy yet still remain true prophets, which of course is completely impossible and would make God and Christ a liar, not to mention Joseph Smith a liar. And we know none of them can lie and remain God's or Prophets. Nor would any righteous person put any faith in a God or prophet who lies or changes or lives polygamy, or abuses women.

If it turns out that Joseph really did weaken and eventually fall for polygamy, despite how evil he knew it was, then it just sadly means he was just another fallen or false prophet, like many prophets before him, who were once highly favored of God but who fell from grace because of whoredoms.

For men who can remain true and completely faithful in heart, mind and body, to their one wife for their whole life, have always been very rare. And only men who can do this are righteous or prophets.

But it seems near impossible for even prophets to maintain their high position and not fall, and so we also have that same test. It seems very few people have ever been able to stay true followers of Christ their entire life and gain true Charity, the true hallmark of a righteous person or prophet and true follower of Christ.

Inspire said...

Anon 2:05 - so what would you say about Nephi's vision of the corrupted Book of the Lamb which binds the Gentiles, causes them to stumble, and gives Satan great power over them?

Anonymous said...

The BOM is a fictional account of things that never happen, this is what the Holy Ghost testifies to me repeatedly as I petition God for truth.

Inspire said...

So it sounds like you're saying that the Old Testament is corrupted and perverted by man, the Book of Mormon was made up and the New Testament is as pure as it gets because .... ? How do you know that the NT wasn't corrupted too? The oldest records they have of the NT are 200 years after Christ died (longer than the B of M has been around). Seems like plenty of time to be manipulated.

LDSDPer said...

I am the anonymous who posted May 1 at 10:13, 10:16 and again, just above, at 10:34--

I should go ahead and put down a name; I'll use one I use on another blog--

I'm sorry; it gets confusing.

Inspire, I agree with you. The Book of Mormon changed my life in a way that the Bible, even the New Testament could not and did not.

But I have chosen to believe in it, because I more than believe in Jesus Christ, though I don't publish my experiences with Deity. I sense the presence of Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon, and I know quite a few Christians who are not LDS who question the historical accuracy of the New Testament. The Book of Mormon is obviously questioned by everyone as to historicity, but it doesn't pretend to be a historical document. It is brilliant, and it points to Jesus throughout.

I do believe that people can repent; I do believe that people who have languished in ignorance can wake up. I believe I experienced the waking up of a man who had been somewhat asleep when Ezra Taft Benson called the entire church to read the Book of Mormon and said that *we* were still under condemnation.

This is what I choose to believe, and I refuse to be frightened or threatened by anyone. I realize there are those early leaders who threatened and used scare tactics to get people to bend to their will (I am thinking Brigham Young; poor man; he can't escape my criticism, I am afraid)--

Anyway, Brigham Young leaned heavily on the Bible; he had to. The Old Testament justified his polygamy.

It's the Book of Mormon for me, and most LDS really are more comfortable with the Bible, and they grow quite uncomfortable, many, again, I don't want to over-generalize, when a fellow LDS begins to wax appreciative of the Book of Mormon.

I didn't become a Mormon (seven generations ago) to laud the Bible. Yes, my ancestors 'followed' the rascally Brigham to Utah and then promptly left and went other places--

but I believe that was so that I could have the Book of Mormon. And I thank ETB, in spite of his political one-track-mindedness and even his earlier racism--

for having helped to wake me up.

Yes, Inspire, the Bible is, indeed, a stumblingblock to the Gentiles. And I am a Gentile, through and through.

The false pride, the amazing pride, that many LDS exhibit about being "of the blood of Israel" staggers me.

And I have been guilty, in the past. Sort of. I always wondered, seriously, about all of that.

Brigham can have his Old Testament religion. I worship the God of Heaven and Earth in great part because of the Book of Mormon.

Inspire said...

Looks like someone hijacked your "Anonymous" thread. I guess to the person(s) who suggest that the Book of Mormon is made up, along with Abraham and Joseph's revelations, I would say this:

What you don't get is that it is the words that matter, and not someone's interpretation of them. We try to discredit the works of Joseph by slandering him as a person, or "proving" him a fake or showing that what he translated could not be historical because of something he called "copper" or an "elephant" or so forth. But all this time have we even looked at the words of the book (without some Bible filter, that is)? They say something, and the story is much more amazing than we ever comprehended. Mostly, I think, the words tell us how merciful and patient God is.

But that's not all. It is asking us to do something, opening a window of opportunity for us who think we already have what we need. The Bible has been around for more than a millennium, and what are its fruits? Factions and fighting. The Bible has had its go. Can't we give the Book of Mormon a chance by at least seeing what it says? That would require us to toss everything we think we know about it and let it stand for itself. No authoritative voices to "guide us" (in these latter days).

Turn the page. See what's there.

Anonymous said...

Nothing wrong in believing in fairytales.

bahrainbroker said...

Like the old motown tune said 'if lovin u is wrong then baby I don't wanna be right'

If the book of Mormon is a fairytale then baby you don't know what the truth is. Don't waste your time with this anymore. Leave it to those who do believe. Waste your time a bit more wisely ;)

Anonymous said...

Proclaiming truth, Fusion, is never a waste of time.

Inspire said...

If we're going for fairy tales then you might want to pick something more entertaining like Les Mis, the works of Tolkien, or how about Star Wars?

The B of M has lost its power because it has been turned into devotional text. "How do I apply this to my daily life?" means everything and nothing.

bahrainbroker said...

Inspire, you really now how to inspire.

chrismace said...

The more truth the better

Sally said...

I know I am commenting on this old post. I don't know when the Church changed it but they decided to get rid of the footnote all together now for that verse.